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International : Europe

Ireland: Concern over Burke’s ‘wedding agreement’

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Irish Hockey

September 8, 2003

The Irish Examiner
> Page Views 2627

By Declan Colley, Barcelona
THE Irish Hockey Association raised more than a few eyebrows at the European Championships over the weekend when it emerged that an Irish player was allowed home from the tournament on Friday to attend a wedding.

It has been confirmed that 29-year-old Hermes forward Jenny Burke had been given permission to fly back to Dublin early on Friday morning to attend the marriage of a friend.

She missed Ireland's 3-0 loss to Germany on Friday, but was back in Barcelona on Saturday morning to take a full part in the 1-1 draw against Ukraine.

Burke, a vastly experienced player with some 130 Irish caps to

her credit, retired from international duty after the World Cup in Australia last year, but she and Karen Bateman were persuaded to return for this competition by coach Riet Kuper.

Ireland's apparent chronic lack of attackers was one of the reasons Kuper lured Burke and Bateman back from retirement. In Burke's case, it appears, she informed the coach she would only be available for the European Championships if she was allowed to return home to a best friend's wedding.

It is understood that most team personnel knew nothing of the circumstances and that even the team manager only found out about it when a taxi drew up to the team hotel on Friday morning to take Burke to the airport.

Kuper has come in for criticism from a number of quarters over her decision, particularly as Burke's selection in the squad meant disappointment for other younger players.

"Aside from the fact that people were left at home to accommodate someone who was going to be allowed home to attend a wedding, I don't think I have ever heard of an international player being allowed to leave a team base right in the middle of a major tournament to attend a wedding. It defies belief," one observer said.

In the meantime, there has also been much discussion among the many Irish supporters about the use of the rugby song 'Ireland's Call' as Ireland's 'national anthem' before each game here men's and women's.

The IHA apparently adopted the song as its anthem some time ago, but these championships are the first time many people have heard it being played before games and are bemused by the Phil Coulter ditty being described as "the national anthem of Ireland" by Spanish organisers.

Supporters are also angry that the Irish flag, is not flying here. Instead, the IHA flag, which is green with the four provincial coats of arms on it, is flown alongside the national flags of the other participating nations.

However, during last Wednesday's women's pool game between Ireland and Italy, flagpoles at the corner of the pitch which are used to display the flags of each nation in action in any particular match, the Irish tricolour was flown alongside the Italian flag.

It is understood that following a protest from a senior IHA member, the flag was taken down and since then the IHA flag has been used anytime Ireland play

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Comments on this article

Hockey Fan 09-09-2003 6:16 am	Report this post
`Double standards Riet, don't you think!?`

Steve 09-09-2003 7:35 am	Report this post
`Flag Do people not understand that Ireland is spilt into two defined countries. Northern Ireland which is part of the UK and The Republic of Ireland. The teams have over 14 players from Northern Ireland (UK) so their National Anthem is not the Soldier Song. Irelands Call is the compromise. As for the Tricolour once again it is not the recognised flag for these players.`

Magee 09-09-2003 10:26 am	Report this post
`Flag Any 'supporters' getting angry about the flag or the song at this stage haven't been turning up for many of Irelands matches in the past 5 or 6 years. Maybe they've been too stunned by what's going on on the pitch to notice until now!!`

Fair Play 09-09-2003 10:42 am	Report this post
`Honest Report Always different standards in hockey. We play the National Anthem + the Coulter 'ditty' in rugby. Also, the Tricolour is always flying for all Irish rugby internationals. These hockey players are playing for Ireland - not Northern Ireland or Britain. It is embarrasing to witness what is going on in Barcelona. The only country without an national flag or anthem.`

Fair Play 09-09-2003 10:49 am	Report this post
`Jenny Joke The Jenny Burke wedding farce is a disgrace. When you consider that other players were left at home & also players in Barcelona left in the stand. Double Dutch standards!`

Embarrassed
09-09-2003 12:17 pm Report this post

Old Farts The Irish hockey scene is dominated by old farts who spend more time concerned about their beliefs than the ability of the players they select. If the tie toters put in as much effort into the coaching of players as they do in ensuring the concerns of a few were met we could produce a group of players that could match the results of a similar nation, say New Zealand. If it is not enough to reach the pinacle of one's playing career by representing Ireland I would suggest that these 14 have the choice to play for a UK based national side, if selected.

Reality Check
09-09-2003 1:17 pm Report this post

JB & Flag Firstly, to deal with the Jenny Burke decision, as usual the biggest issue is not being open about the decision. If the article is accurate then it was kept quiet which will naturally upset people when it comes out. If the decision was communicated to all involved in the squad then I don't see the issue. It was a dead match insofar as we were never going to get anything against the Germans, and no one had an issue when JB was to sit in the stand. What does it matter whether she sat in the Stand or came home for a wedding.. Do people think she went on the beer? For all those people who believe lots of players have been inconvenienced by this, then perhaps you might name them as the only reason Burke and Bateman were called back was due to the lack of quality experienced players available. I haven't been fortunate enough to get to Barcelone both knowing the ability of both players I am sure they are having a positive impact both on and off the pitch. We have after all achieved the goal of achieving top 8 status. As regards the flag issue I totally agree with the comments of Fair Play and Embarrassed above. The Irish Flag should be flown..It does after all reflect the colours of Nationalists and Unionists. Whatever about Barcelone it was a real kick in the teeth in Dublin at the European 18s not to hear the national anthem played. Finally best of luck to the girls on Friday and Saturday, lets not settle for top 8 and go and get 5th spot. This will be a marvellous achievement coming on the back of so many retirrements this year.

MC
09-09-2003 3:28 pm Report this post

JB I couldnt agree more with Reality Check re: Burke situation. Surely the issue here is the fact that Kuper was forced to persuade two players to come out of retirement to play in this tournament in the first place. This simply reflects the very limited pool of talent she has to choose from and highlights the problems facing womens hockey in Ireland today when we attempt to compete at an international level. I would like to know exactly who was "left behind" who could have even come close to competing at the same level as Bateman and Burke. If Kuper had to negotiate a compromise with Burke then so be it. Missing one international game after having played for your country over 130 times is hardly "a disgrace". The team came third in their group and have the chance of finishing in fifth place. Why dont people concentrate on the positive aspects of their achievement and stop being so petty.

Canuck 09-09-2003 7:04 pm	Report this post
`Flag and Anthem As a rank outsider, I think the IHA should use this compromise to promote unification of the Island and help give peace to all. Another contribution by sport to healing old wounds.`

Fan
09-10-2003 4:23 am Report this post

Flag, Anthem & Jenny So what if the tri-colour isn't flying? As a very proud southern Irelander it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Lets face it, unfortunatly the tri-colour has been hi-jacked by certain people to get their message across. In this day and age we should be promoting co-operation and if some of the Northern players don't want the tri-colour flown, then so be it. It's not as if they want to have the Union Jack flown and sing "God Save The Queen". Same thing applies to "Ireland's Call". With the rugby internationals, "Amhran na bhFiann" is only played in Landsdowne Road (with the "ditty") and never on away matches. Perhaps this should have applied in Dublin? Jenny Burke may be an outstanding player and a great servant to Irish hockey but the whole incident smacks of amateurism. With a hectic schedule for the international team coming up, including a long trip to the Olympic qualifiers, funding will be a key issue. How do the IHA expect to try to extract the maximum, though probably meagre, funding for the team when they do not promote a "professional" image? Furthermore, how are clubs and non-international players supposed to be taken seriously as athletes if this is the kind of behaviour that goes on in our senior squad?

Stephen
09-10-2003 7:40 am Report this post

Flag and Anthems The flag of the competing country should always be flown and sorry but "both" anthems will be sung in Oz @ the World Cup next month. I'm sorry but in the professional of rugby we have lost what is important - wearing the colours of your country with pride rather than the financial recompense that rugby players now get. As a rugby man, I'm annoyed that kids these days have lost their sense of purpose, their pride and dignity, what does it matter what anthem is sung - for God's sake I'm sure the English would be more fired up singing the tweety song rather than the Queen - Ulsterman!

Reality Check
09-10-2003 3:15 pm Report this post

Fan The suggestion that JB being allowed return to Ireland for a wedding during the Europeans is somehow "amateurish" beggars belief. It is precisely because of the "professional" regime that the girls follow that they find themselves achieving top 8 status in the Europeans, qualifying for World cups and competing at Olympic Qualifiers. The impressive achievement of the team in achieving top 8 status despite all the retirements after Sydney is further proof of their ongoing commitment to the sport. Anyone who is even remotely familiar with the preparation programme that the girls undertake would not question their professionalism. The IHA has a very simple case to make for funding...ongoing improvement. As for clubs, non internationals etc. they know what is expected. If we were running a more amateurish less demanding programme I'm not sure that we would be at the level we currently have. On the flip side we might have a broader squad to choose from as many are unable to commit to the program for work and social reasons. The petty mindedness of those who continue to bemoan this decision is si typical of the mentality of so many in this great little country. If Kuper had to make a concession to get JB on board for Barcelona then that is a wonderfully pragmatic response that has benefited the squad. JB is no doubt looking forward to her second and I'm sure final retirement after Barcelona so that she can make up for the many weddings, social events and other outings that she has missed over the past 10 years whilst travelling the world representing her country. I note that neither Fair Play nor the unnamed observer in Declan Colleys article have yet visited the site to list all those young players left behind...I look forward to the list. Come on Ireland

Actually there
09-11-2003 6:31 am Report this post

Being in Barcelona After having actually attended the majority of the tournament unlike some who choose to comment here can I make the following points 1. The Jenny Burke situation was badly handled by the management BUT if she had not been there things would have been even bleaker. Ireland by their own admission have very limited resources and the inclusion of Burke to strengthen the squad was totally justified to anyone who was axctually watching the game. 2. The issue of flags and anthems. The main issue about flags is definetly coming from the womens supporters in Barcelona. This was also witnessed two years ago in Rotterdam when the U18 and U16 boys and girls tournaments were held side by side. Coincedently there were no such problems this year in Barcelona with the U18 boys and yet again there were comments made in Dublin at the U18 girls. As a very "unloyal" northerner who has no real political views it would still annoy me to have to stand to the Tricolour. It is purely as someone has already mentioned the fact that it has been hijacked by the people in Ireland who have draped it over coffins of IRA men , waved it in West Belfast as innocent people in Omagh were blown apart etc. Before I am accused of any biased I would be equally offended it the Ulster flag or Union flag was flown as it also represents the oppression that has hung over Ireland for many years. Rather than trying to open old wounds is a compromise the best way forward with the IHA flag 3. Anthems - Having witnessed a scene in Barcelona when the French antehm failed to play over the loudspeaker the French men stood together and sung it at the top of their voices. We all doubted in the crowd if it had happened to the Irish if they could have done the same to Irelands Call. Our Anthem does sound very weak compared to the others ( although the version of Flower of Scotland was pretty grim!!)and I would be happy to stand to The Soldiers song as long there is some other alternative played. Please remember that for 1/2 of the mens squad the soldiers song is not their national anthem and although this will start another argument the structures are not in place to allow these guys to play for GB as freely as for Ireland.

Dodgy Goalie
09-11-2003 10:20 am Report this post

A few responses to the points made above from someone who has been in Barcelona as a supporter since the start of the tournament… Of course the Jenny Burke situation isn’t ideal, but it just underlined how desperate Riet Kuper was to have her back. Remember, neither Burke nor Karen Bateman asked to be brought back, they had both decided to retire so Ireland wasn’t doing them a favour by ‘taking’ them back, they were doing Ireland a favour (both had served their time, neither player owed Ireland anything). Burke agree to return for Barcelona on condition that she be allowed home for the wedding of a close friend – Kuper was faced with the choice of saying ‘no’ and going to Barcelona without a decent forward, or making an exception under the circumstances. It was a tough call, but it’s just not realistic of any one to say she should have said ‘no’. We are short enough on quality players, we’re just not in a position to be without the likes of Burke (anyone who saw today’s game against France would understand – she was the best player on the pitch by a mile). Like some of the people above I would ask the anti-Burke posters to name ANY player good enough to have made the squad ahead of her. ANY player. The panel was so small any way hardly any one missed out, and any one who did just wasn’t good enough. So please, tell me who lost her place due to Burke and Bateman returning? As for the flag and anthem business. To those who say they find the Tricolour offensive because they associate it with the IRA I say…that comment tells us all we need to know about your politics! And it’s not middle of the road or conciliatory either. If you want to start those kind of games consider some of the things done under the Union Jack flag over the years, and then tell us that it’s a flag with a clear conscience! Every flag on earth has been ‘abused’ at one stage or another, but blame the abusers, not the flag! My humble opinion is that an all-Irish hockey team is an unworkable farce and only continues to exist because the hockey establishment have their heads in the sand. This team has no identity and represents nothing but an artificial entity, and stands to attention to an embarrassing and God awful pop tune that means nothing to any one. My dearest wish is that north and south will go their separate ways in hockey, let the Ulster players, most of whom are uncomfortable any way representing ‘Ireland’, play for Northern Ireland, and let the southern players represent the Republic of Ireland, with their own flag, anthem and Irish identity, just as most of them want (I’ve played with most of them, I know). But will it happen? Probably not, but I dream of the day it will.

Ex-Player 09-11-2003 11:38 am	Report this post
`Anthem Just for "Actually There" information - the Irish team were away at a tournament a year or so ago and the Irelands Call anthem did not play properly. We all took up the song and sung it with as much gusto as we could - but I could guarantee you that if it was The Soldier Song, there wouldn't be a chance in hell we would have known the words or been able to sing along.`

Musical 09-11-2003 12:29 pm	Report this post
`Barcelona anthems Frankly, it is absurd that we have had anthems before every single game in Barcelona. Usually at tournaments, they are played once, before a team´s first match and then ignored. That would seem to be the answer, but failing that, can I suggest every side adopts the Russian anthem because it is by far the best.`

Field Fish
09-11-2003 12:57 pm Report this post

Weddings songs & flags Weddings Well really there was only one thing that Riet could do when faced with this wedding no wedding thing. The truth is as has already been voiced we don't have the players in the country & without both Jenny & Karen in this team we would not be looking forward to a 5th place finish. If there is a fault here it is how the whole thing was handled. If the article is right then yes a slap on the wrists for the lack of communication is deserved. But don't let this become fuel for the "why can't we have an Irish person coaching" camp. Riet has given our ladies the edge we can go out & compete now. Yes it will always be an up hill battle with our players trying juggle family lives & hold down jobs as well as train almost full time but just take a look at where we are even with all that ! RE Flags & Songs The prospect of maybe a cheap flight a couple of weeks in Barcelona with a nice bit of heat & "ah sure we will go to the hockey as we're there" has brought out a few the cranks ! The majority of us were there to support our teams & were very proud to sing along to Mr Coulters ditty with the IHA flag fluttering in the breeze. Why not in these days of attempted peace & reconciliation just keep this simple & settle for a compromise ? Did anybody ask the people who matter (that's the players!) if they feel any way offended by the flag or Irelands Call ? Having been to many tournaments & seen our teams stand proudly as they sing Irelands Call I don't think so . I really think this is just about certain people getting their underwear in a twist ! Heres looking at 5th girls ! How many goals ?? Bring it on! Mr. "back of the net" Sherriff

oh really 09-12-2003 12:32 pm	Report this post
`In response to "reality check" opinion on the burke situation. Firstly it seems a typical Irish mentality being exercised once again in a major competition of a rule for everyone else except the Irish. It was above all amaturish, and if the girls and men for that matter want to succeed and improve, then i believe this mentality should be extinguished!!!`

Reality Check
09-12-2003 1:18 pm Report this post

oh Really Could you please clarify your point on the typical Irish Mentality bit? The decision to grant JB her request and to get her on board in the first place was taken by the "Dutch Coach" who has a huge wealth of recognised experience in International Hockey. I would agree that how it was handled was amateurish but as regards coming to a pragmatic decision to get Burke to Barcelona then I think totally justified and a sign of decisive action by a coach who has done a lot to try and bring a professional approach to Irish Hockey. Not sure what the "rule for everyone else refers to".

George Guy
09-12-2003 1:38 pm Report this post

Irelands Call As a proud Scot in Barcelona for the Under 18 Tournament can I just say that the Scottish Management, Players and Supporters all joined in with the singing of "Irelands Call", having been handed the words by the players. The Irish supported us to the hilt and we supported them. "Flower of Scotland" (another "Folk" ditty) was sung with great gusto by both sets of supporters and I never heard a single complaint about "Irelands Call". The Boys did Ireland proud and I see nothing wrong in a song that talks about unity.

oh really 09-12-2003 1:50 pm	Report this post
`the mentality of,"let's give it a good go, c what happens."i agree that the game has taken on more of a professional nature in recent years both for men and women, but it seems to be the amateurish also lingering around.`

jacphysio
09-12-2003 7:09 pm Report this post

Time to end this nonsense This article was at best poor judgement, and at worst an effort to stir up a lot of old dead ideas that rear their ugly head at tournament time. The situations called into question have happened, and a lot of people have spent a lot of time diatribing about what should've been done and waht was done. It must be remembered that the journalist in question was not a memeber of the Irish management team and therefore does not know what actually happened or what was commmunicated. All that this article has done is once again take the focus off of an extraordinary achievement by Irish teams at top level international competition. I havent seen too many people writing in to applaud the teams and the managements for their hard work and dedication, just some snipers out taking pot-shots at whoever they can and then scurrying off from the whence they came. Give it a rest. Support the teams and the decisions made by management without second guessing or armchair commentating. Ireland are not the only team to play a song other than the identified national anthem of the country, Ireland are alos not the first team to have had to make accomodations to ensure that players are available to play. Time to end this nonsense and support the teams. On to the Olympic Qualifier in New Zealand and forget the side-line issues.

Sammy 09-14-2003 1:23 pm	Report this post
`Flag Biggots out there dry your eyes and go away, the fact is this is sport and flags dont come into it, the IHA Flag has always been flown, it is unfair to fly the tricolur. Just support the game who cares about the flag!`

Modern thinking
09-15-2003 4:48 am Report this post

Typical response - don't change anything, sure we're fine the way we are. Is it not time for Irish hockey to become more modern & professional. We have a men's Irish coach who had to bring in Soma Singh (a real coach) to do his job. Unfortunatley, this didn't appear to extend to team selaction. We had players in Barcelona selected ahead of inform players. Best panel of players for a long time but not used correctly. Time for Clake to go & bring in a professional coach.

Irish Hockey Player Relative 09-15-2003 7:04 am	Report this post
`I was in Barcelona and to let the issues of the flag, anthem and the JB situation overshadow the achievements of the Irish teams is an embaressment and a disgrace. I am familiar with the effort that the players have put in over the past year in prepration for this tournament and they all deserve our congratulations and upmost respect for their acheivements...WELL DONE IRELAND!!`

Mr A
09-15-2003 8:00 am Report this post

Who is this guy D. Colley ? Who is this guy D. Colley ? he clearly is not a follower of Irish Hockey or he would have heard the Hockey Anthem and seen the IHA flag over the past few years. Also, i question his decision to focus on JB unavailablity for one match instead of focussing on the very promising performances of the irish women. instead of quoting unamed "supporters" and perhaps tainting the article with his own political bias he should have talked to the players. They are very much in favour of a team from North and South of the border and that what ever Anthem or flag is used does not cause offence nor make any player from any race or religon feel uncomfortable. The IHA should be commended for their progress in this regard for adopting an inclusive ethos and integrating players from both sides of the border with equality and without prejudice. To have two international teams would be stupid as it would jsut mean that NI and ROI would not qualify for such t/ments and would be competing with the Greeks and Finlands oif the hockey world. The supporters he quotes are simply out of touch with reality and player views and too gutless to put their name in the paper as Mr. Colley's source. It is an another sad day to see another newspaper "journalist" try to drum up a story off the pitch instead of reporting about the players and the matches. Perhaps the reason is that several of the reporters do not have a hockey back ground and hence feel unable to report on the matches given their lack of knowledge...... MH and JF are names that come to mind ! :mad:

For the Press 09-15-2003 10:23 am	Report this post
`I think it's great to see hockey getting any type of press coverage. The more contraversial the better. It's a damn sight better than the usual few hidden scores in the results section. Any publicity is good. Hockey is a great game but so many people know nothing about it. In fact in many parts it's still considered a girls sport. This reporting is great for the game.`

JF
09-15-2003 12:14 pm Report this post

MR A's ignorance. I assume I'm the JF referred to above. As for my lack of hockey background, well I played since the age of 14 at school, then joined Collegians (now known as Belfast Harlequins) two years later and played for them for some 15 years before taking up umpiring. I was actually the (secondary) source of the JB story. It originated during a conversation with a parent of one of the girls. At no time did Riet Kuper mention it when asked about the reasons for her omission from the 16 which started against Germany. So although I didn't write about it I understand why it was deemed 'newsworthy' As for the flags and anthems issue, frankly I don't give a damn as the man said. I love listening to the Irish national anthem and always turn up the TV when it's on before GAA matches. But I understand why it is offensive to some people. As far as the personal insults go I'd just like to say that the equally ignorant MH and myself do our best to get hockey as much column inches as possible in a football-dominated media. I paid my own way to Barca and it COST me money and five days leave from my 'day job' at UTV which covers more hockey than any other TV station in Ireland though well done to RTE for their coverage of the women's Senior Cup final. It also 'cost' me to go Perth for the World Cup and the result was six TV features for BBC and UTV. You have to realise that soccer rugby GAA are the 'big' sports in Ireland and hockey is some way down the list, like it or not. AS for my lack of hockey background though, you're barking up the wrong tree Mr A ! Old journalistic adage you employed...never let the facts get in the way of a good story !! Maybe you're after my job ?? Then you might undertand how it works.

JO
09-15-2003 9:23 pm Report this post

Mr A? Great reply JF, maybe Mr A will learn something from it…although he’s so proud of his 'hockey back ground' he might be too precious to stoop so low as to read it, he might catch something! I know who Mr A is, (the ‘A’ is a bit misleading!) let’s just call it a tip-off from regular users of this site and ip address-deciphering wizards! He knows me too, I played against his team in the Irish Cup quite recently and we had words after the game. His reputation is that of someone who has contributed very little – apart from an inflated ego, tired old ideas and laughably clichéd ‘inspirational’ team-talks (he’s big in to American sport!) - to hockey in Ireland, as a player or coach. He was involved in the international set-up, peripherally (although he had a grand title), the past few years and was known only as a ‘yes man’ (do you recognise yourself??), who never had the guts to challenge the coach despite persistently b*tching in private (so my international club mates tell me). Mr A’s comments were classic ‘establishment Irish hockey’, even if he viewed himself as a bit of a rebel before he briefly joined the party (he was effectively sacked last year). Isn’t it sad how the wearing of a blazer can change someone’s outlook on life??!! Very interested in his reference to people’s 'hockey back grounds'. What does this mean Mr A? Does it mean what you drunkenly told me in a pub last year after our game? That you come from the right part of town? That you dig with the right foot? That your surname doesn’t sound too Teague-ish? (In vino veritas??). That you have the right accent? That your Daddy is the CEO of a major company? That you're acceptable to the hockey establishment? That you don't rock the boat and never say boo? That you don't give voice to those in hockey who feel that they've been mistreated by your beloved establishment? That you ignore the facts and hype up an acceptable, but far from spectacular, end product from the women’s team in Barcelona? That would be you, alright, trying to convince us all that the women’s wins over Italy, Wales and France = the finest achievement in the history of Irish sport! Always content with what we’ve got, never hoping for something more. You tried to convince me that they actually did well at the World Cup, despite losing all but one of their games! What you have never ever understood is that fantastic characters like Arlene Boyles didn’t leave Australia content with eight (nine?) straight defeats, she didn’t give up her life for that. But you tried to argue that that was the best Irish hockey could achieve – in other words, you were hopelessly out of touch with the ambitions of our senior players. For you it’s all about a free trip for the blazers to some hot spot, even if that very notion make you vomit not so long ago…but that blazer fit snuggly. The truth is Mr A, hockey is actually a very simple sport, no matter how hard you try to mythologize it. And hard and all as it might be for you to stomach lots of people who didn’t go to the right schools (or church), or come from your part of town (ie south of the river) are now involved, at one level or another. Maybe it’s time for you to move on to Real Tennis, where everyone, I hear, has your kind of ‘background’! (Aren’t you sorry now you spoke to me in that pub after you drank that much?!). I know JF, and I know what he has done for Ulster and Irish hockey – a lot, lot more than you have ever done or will do. I buy the Belfast Telegraph every day and most times JF has a hockey article in there. When there’s controversy he rightly covers it (I know you feel controversy should be buried), when there’s a success he celebrates it. All the time – and I know from dealing with him – he comes up against establishment dinosaurs who have no understanding about what it takes to promote our sport. But he does it any way. From what I read in the BT he has infinitely more knowledge of and passion for the game than you have ever displayed as a player or coach. Actually, it is precisely because of your type that our sport hasn’t advanced further. I hear you will have a limited role this season – good!

JO
09-15-2003 9:23 pm Report this post

Mr A
09-16-2003 2:23 am Report this post

JO...that did make me laugh ! that you have spent so much time typing all that reply which made very little sense to me and everyone else ...and probably only made sense to you and your secret liason in that pub ! I think you have should actually read the comments and not try and guess the identity as you are clearly some way off the mark. If you have read some of my others posts on this site over the past year or so you will see. I have never been involved in the Womens sport nor in International hockey but do get annoyed when such "precious" column inches are taken up by stories about anthems and flags and other off the pitch stories about players withdrawing. I was not prilivleged to be over in Barca but would like to have seen reports about the matches , and not just the irish ones ! that is promoting the sport, not writing an article that creates such meaningless debate as you would have read on this thread to date. PS ....you do really have a chip on your shoulder about this other person though ! :o

JF
09-16-2003 4:29 am Report this post

MR A Well said Jo. Thanks for your support. I owe you one mate or matette. As for Mr A, it is not the job of the media to 'promote' hockey or any other sport. Our job is to report the facts and also give opinions whether or not people like them isn't really our concern. There are two ways of looking at Ireland's performance in Barca. 6th in Europe wonderful or not so wonderful. We beat France, Wales and Italy. We should expect to beat those nations. We generally do. And have done so on a regular basis over the years. But look at the money which went into the preparations. Much higher level of investment than in different eras yet have we progressed? We must be aiming higher surely. Beating Ukraine for the first time would be a start. I heard today that one of the Irish players has just lost her job because she took so much time off. This is the sort of thing the IHA should be addressing. Will they look after her ? Course not. Is the level of commitment asked of our girls too high? What were the rewards on the playing arena ? Were they cost-effective as a pay-back for the investment in time and money ? Would we have beaten France Wales and Italy with lower investment ? Is it right that young women run the risk of losing their jobs because of the level of commitment ?Those are just a few thoughts. Facts mixed with opinions. You may not like them Mr A but that's the nature of the job. Leave the promotion of the sport to the PR companies and the IHA Marketing machine.

Frustrated!
09-16-2003 7:31 am Report this post

Mr A is being a little unrealistic if he thinks he should be able to read reports on hockey matches NOT involving Ireland in Irish newspapers. Would you expect to read a report in an Irish paper on, for example, a basketball match between Denmark and Israel at the European Championships? The two sports are comparable, size wise, in Ireland, although a lot more people turn up to support basketball. My sister is on the Irish squad and I'm always amazed by how few people bother turning up at home to support the team, for example at the European Qualifier last year. The same people who complain about the media's lack of interest are the very ones who don’t bother turning up at Belfield, it is infuriating and hypocritical to say the least and makes hockey look like a sport that has no support or interest. Think back to RTE’s live coverage of the cup final last season. Remember all the empty seats, and the only half-filled terrace? It was embarrassing, hardly anyone from clubs not involved in the final bothered going to the game even though it was a huge opportunity for everyone to show the public how well supported the game is. I can only guess that RTE and the rest of the media felt at the end of it: if there’s that little interest in an Irish cup final amongst hockey people why on earth should we give it substantial coverage? Also, objecting to coverage of the Jenny Burke controversy is all part of the attitude in hockey that it should be treated differently to other sports, that it somehow should be exempt from the normal rules of reporting. If this (ie an Irish international being allowed to leave a tournament for a few days for a wedding) had happened in any other sport, amateur or professional, it would probably have been front page news! Why should hockey be any different? And why shouldn’t the Cork Examiner look at an issue (flags and anthems) that IS big in Irish hockey (ask my sister!)? I take my hat off to them because no other newspaper has had the guts to deal with the issue.

Former hack
09-16-2003 9:21 am Report this post

I couldn't agree more with Frustrated and JF's remarks. Years ago I worked briefly as a freelance sport reporter for a newspaper before leaving journalism to take up teaching (what a fool I was!). I found dealing with the hockey association and so many people in the sport to be utterly frustrating because they just hadn't a clue how to promote it and their arrogance was beyond belief. They believed it was my role to do a PR job for the sport and never to cover controversies which my sports editor found very amusing. He used to ask me why they thought there should be a different rule for them but I never knew. Even if there was something controversial going on, and there was lots of it in my time, especially concerning an Irish coach, they would still expect you to ignore it when all of Irish hockey was talking about it. Mr A's comment that off the pitch stories should be ignored is typical of this attitude, that hockey should not be treated the same as other sports, as Frustrated said. Why should it not be treated the same! Why should a story about an Irish player having a row with their coach and walking out of the squad not be reported? FOR GOD’S SAKE! Look at the response on this website to Declan Colly’s article! THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO READ, and they’re lying if they deny it. The anthem controversy in rugby is getting huge coverage at the moment, why should the same controversy be ignored in hockey? Mr A argues that the space should only be used for match reports but judging by how few people go to hockey matches in Ireland there seems to be damn all interest in the game, even from so called hockey supporters. Most Saturdays there’d be just me and about five others at a game, and it was sometimes the same at internationals. Because of that my instructions from my sports editor were always to cut down on detailed match reports because of the lack of interest and attempt to do more colour reports and interviews. I know the same instructions are given these days because I have a nephew who is a freelance reporter. What Mr A doesn’t realise is that it’s not the reporter who decides how much space hockey or any specific hockey story gets, it’s the sports editor, and that every reporter fights hard to get more space for their sport. But he is obviously very unaware of how it all works. On the other point dismissing Declan Colly because he doesn’t have a hockey background (do you know this for sure?) is laughable. In my opinion the greatest sports writers of all time are Hugh McIlvaney, Con Houlihan and Tom Humphreys and to my knowledge none has ever played sport at a high level but nobody questions their ability to write about any sport. I’m not aware of too many Formula One reporters who were Formula One drivers, too many horse racing reporters who were jockeys, etc, etc. As somebody said earlier hockey is a very simple sport and if a reporter is covering it week in, week out, going to lots of games it’s really very easy to understand. Even Mr A should know this.

Supergrass 09-16-2003 9:24 am	Report this post
`mr A is involved in Leinster men's hockey and is a good one to be talking about chips on the shoulder............isn't that right mr A? ;-)`

Dinosaur Slayer
09-16-2003 1:14 pm Report this post

hear, hear to the last few posts, they expressed my exact feelings on the rampant conservatism that is suffocating irish hockey. as someone who is involved with a leinster club, previously as a player, now in a coaching capacity, and has some involvement with u21 international hockey, i do my level best to promote the sport at every available opportunity by providing journalists with any information they request and being as open and honest with them when they have awkward questions. mr a can query their credentials all he likes but i deal with them on a weekly basis and know them to be informed and passionate about the game and know how hard they battle to get hockey as much coverage as possible, in the face of almost complete disinterest from their employers. but it’s always easy to snipe, such is ireland! as someone who has links with old alex i was desperate to know the story behind the brilliant trish conway’s withdrawal from the irish squad – when i opened my newspaper i was able to find out, that is after all the job of newspapers. for mr a to say this story should have been ignored is extraordinary. are you a member of the iha by any chance? if you’re not you might soon be! to those who report on the sport – delighted to see JF contribute above, a man who has done more for irish hockey than almost anyone i know, along with MH who has almost doubled hockey’s coverage in the times since she became involved and has added a quality and style to the coverage that we never had before – i say ignore the knockers and keep on doing what you’re doing, almost all of us out here appreciate your efforts and are grateful for your attempts to boost the sport’s profile. and keep reporting on the stories that mr a doesn’t want to read, if you’re upsetting him (and the iha) you must be doing the right thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JO
09-16-2003 1:39 pm Report this post

JO Nice try Mr A! You said my post made “very little sense to me and everyone else” but I still got EIGHT emails today from hockey friends, who recognised me (‘JO’) and are VERY familiar with you and your postings, all of them confirming my suspicions about the identity of “Mr A” – it most definitely IS you!! Where did I say you were involved in “women’s sport” – nowhere!! Where did I say you were an international big wig – nowhere!! I said you were involved “PERIPHERALLY”, which you were, VERY peripherally. The ‘Grand title’ and ‘blazer’ digs were a joke you didn’t get – think about it! Hint: Grange Road last year. You don’t remember our pub conversation? I’m not surprised!! You had to be literally carried out at the end of the night, with a shirt covered in beer stains!! In other words, you’ve been rumbled! Your best line of all was your complaint about the ‘meaningless debate’ on this thread, a thread you have contributed to substantially! In other words, even you get animated when interesting issues are raised in Irish hockey…….I rest my case!

puzzled
09-16-2003 1:39 pm Report this post

why are our ireland hockey jounos getting so upset in fairness they put plenty of their personal criticism in black and white so taking a little back may not be a bad lesson either ! ehh scoop & jo ?? the comments above are quite right it is not the job of the journo to promote or market the sport which is quite clear in the style of reporting. they need to get their space which is easier got by sensationalising hockey triviality which in truth no right minded hockey supporter really cares about. selling a story to the editor is what keeps them in beer and fags after all. jacphysio above seems to have it right ....Time to end this nonsense

Even more puzzled 09-16-2003 4:13 pm	Report this post
`"...easier got by sensationalising hockey triviality which in truth no right minded hockey supporter really cares about".... ....is that why you've turned up on this thread??? seems like the sensational hockey trivia caught your attention!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DECLAN COLLEY RULES!`

.
09-16-2003 4:19 pm Report this post

PS PS For Jacphysio's information if Declan Colley was a member of the Irish management team this story would never have come out - and he certainly does know what happened, I know this for an absolute fact. Are you saying that only members of management know what goes on? That no player/coach/IHA official leaks information? How naive?! An extraordinary achievement by the Irish teams in Barcelona? Ninth and sixth? Cop yourself on! And give us a break from this hockey establishment propaganda guff, it's a joke.

jf
09-16-2003 6:33 pm Report this post

trivia Is it trivia that two members of the Irish men's squad in Barca were involved in a punch-up at a night club ? With each other I hasten to add!! Will that be reported in the papers ? No. Why ? Cos us hacks care about 'our' sport.We care not about the aleckadoos, on their junkets, but the players some of whom are personal friends. We know a good story when we see one. That one is a 'cracker'. If we published it we would be damned but our sports editors would love it. Yet the big wigs and the general establishment in the IHA would recoil in horror if it did see the light of day in the papers. I am sure though they would love to see some Irish League or Eircom League soccer player on the front pages being similarly damned. Those 'working-class' footballers up to no good again, I can just hear them say. Peripheral to the main arguement, I know but hope you get my drift.

Judge
09-16-2003 9:21 pm Report this post

Can I make a heartfelt plea here? Would all concerned agree to differ, stop posting messages in this section and call a complete halt to this destructive 'debate'? It is descending in to pathetic name calling and abuse and attempts to belittle those involved in hockey in Ireland. I am saddened to see our hockey reporters being insulted because I believe they do a fine job in what is a small sport in Ireland. I might not have agreed with some of Mr Colley's points but I respect his right to express them and invite debate on some important issues. That he, and others, be abused for doing so smacks of narrow-minded nonsense. But please end this now, I plead with you all.

BRM
09-17-2003 4:49 am Report this post

Im in shock To all who read this...... This is the first time that I have ever posted something here but I have just spent the last twenty minutes reading all the threads about Jenny Burkes wedding trip, Riet as a coach, bigotry, flags, anthems and anything else people could vent.... I am shocked to say the least. If you dont mind take a couple of minutes to read my response to some of your points. Mr Colley has a right to voice what he sees as an issue that justifies newspaper column inches. Whether you believe it or on or whether you agree with it or not does not matter, you still ready it....My GOD you are all debating it. He does not have to have played hockey to voice an opinion. At every tournament, and Ive been at a few, there are little things that crop up that relate directly to organisational issues with the IHA and there are always some of those 'controversial' issues that crop up. The Flag/Anthem; I object strongly that people have issues with the tricolor. Look at the IRFU, they fly the tricolor and they are an all-ireland organisation. And I object to the point that the majority of Ulster players have issues with it. They dont, in fact I have had the great experience of sitting down at an international tournament and teaching the Ulster boys to sing 'Amhran Na Fhiann'. It was a fanstastic experience. We all spent the duration of the tournament slagging each other off in good humour. Going out on a limb here but there are a handful of bigoted people involved in the heirarchy in the IHA who object to anything traditionally Irish. Remembering an official who insisted in going around a tournament last year wearing an orange hat on July 12th. You know who you are ! That same person also has very disturbing views on Catholics/Nationalists. This is not the impression that we should be giving to our children and our aspiring hockey players. Traditionally, Ulster players have dominated Irish hockey teams and thus Ulster officials have dominated the IHA. And we would not be anywhere if it wasnt for these players. People talking about an NI team and ROI team are looking through rose colour glasses.We all need each other, end of story. However its officials and alikadoos who make the decisions not the players. The IHA as an organisation need to take the step forward and drop the old school tie attidude to Irish hockey. They are snobs who will not be seen to need help. The U'18's last year came up with a very reasonable idea to raise money for their trips and were rebuked by the IHA and were not allowed. The U'21's were offered commercial sponsorship for the kit and were told that the 'sponsorship' was in becoming of the IHA's marketing strategy. The onus again was on the parent to fork out upwards of €300 to pay for kit. I know of similar issues with other international teams. So my point (finally......) is look a the bigger picture. Why was the Irish Team Manager one of the last to know about Jenny Burkes travel plans? Why do stories like this happen? Why are we all debating flags and anthems? Why do we still have bigoted people involved in our sport administration? If you want answers represent your club at council meetings.....make the changes...For a long as you dont do this, the same people will still run the show and will decide for you..... I hope I have not offended anyone... Your sincerely A. Hockey. Fan :)

P
09-17-2003 12:05 pm Report this post

Wow! What a reaction to that article! It's kind of funny that most of the people who complained about it still responded to it, it's what I call a healthy debate and there hasn't been enough of that for as long as I've been involved in Irish hockey. So congratulations to the author! I also notice a lot of shooting the messenger has been going on which is also typical of Irish hockey. The logic seems to if you don't like the real stories in hockey being exposed or the performance of the association or our teams being questioned then respond by insulting the messenger and questioning their right to be involved in hockey in the first place! These people should move to Zimbabwe and get a job with Robert Mugabe!

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