Comments on this article
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umpire
11-13-2002 3:14 pm
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Sorry, cannot agree with these comments. A red card is a red card - not a long yellow.
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Carlos
11-14-2002 12:32 am
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cards
There are several options available. Possibly making the difference between the yellow and red card smaller. 5 min or 16 days. Also players are traded in England club hockey?
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Player
11-14-2002 4:37 am
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My opinion as that it is not up to the umpire to make up the rules. Rules are rules and it is their job to enforce them. Too many umpires think they are above the law and can create decisions from nowhere
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Player
11-14-2002 5:21 am
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As a foreign player in England, I can't say if red cards are being handed out less, but they are certainly quick to dish out the yellows!
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scottish discipline chairman
11-14-2002 6:53 am
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red cards
you cannot start to give 35min yellows instead of red cards what happens if it is the last 5 min of the game, are you going to make the player miss 30 min of the game next week.....
Scotland has had an elegant solution to this problem for a number of years, namely two classes of red card. Class 2 for minor (non violent offences and multiple yellows) and class1. Class two cards result in an automatic ban for two games, therefore saving vast amounts of paperwork. You can then deal with the more serious cases through the more laborious channels.
This system makes admin 10x easier and the players all know where they stand if they get a routine red card.
maybe england should take a leaf from their northern neighbours
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Sports fan
11-14-2002 6:54 am
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Weak Umpires
Well said umpire what is not been taken into account is the effect that not giving Red's is having on league results. If an offence warrents a red then then player must go and his team must play without him till his ban is over.
Both codes of Rugby have gone down the route of over using the yellow when clearly a red is needed. Rugby league does at least have a report system where an isident can be reviewd after the game. even this is now used as a way out for the refs.
Lets get back to using the cards in the way they are intended and not trying to introduce further half measures that let the offenders off. Is it not better to stop the players thinking they can get away with anything without serious penalty.
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Observer
11-14-2002 7:00 am
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Hoskins
I think it unfair to use Marks yellow cards as an example of umpires shying away from using red cards. As the umpires said he may have been impetuous but the offences were far from serious.
The 32 minute suspension was for 2 separate offences that were punished by yellow cards. Neither offence was worthy of a red and were in no way violent, the first for tripping a player following a free hit (12m) the second for kicking the ball away and dissent (20m) - as far as I could tell.
Red cards should be for violent offences be that actual or threatened not for the above.
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German umpire
11-14-2002 10:08 am
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Observer
I agree with "Observer" that red cards should be given for very serious offences. Since a couple of years, we show someone who has been given yellow in the same game the yellow/red card for his next offence if it wasn't a red in itself. The yellow/red card means the player does not come back onto the pitch and is banned for the next game. I think that is a good solution.
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Former Umpire
11-14-2002 11:53 am
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Red Cards
As usual Claire Middleton's reporting looks for the sensational and the controversial - there is no mention of the apparent fact that the 32 minutes consisted of two yellows for two different offences, much less reporting what the actual offences were. The facts should never be allowed to get in the way of a good story. Who are the umpires who do not want to form fill, and prefer to hand out lengthy yellows? Come on Claire, name some names and give us some facts, not wild generalisations and assumptions!
I am sure that if a player is given a red those umpires operating at National League level will give the card, write the report and attend any appeal, if that is what the offence really deserved.
However, a lot of umpires are not happy with the notion that two yellows equals one red. Are we really saying that we want to see a player banned for 16 days for two yellows, for example for knocking a ball away, and not retiring the necessary distance from a free hit? I think not. Red cards should be for violent offences, or offences which set out to deliberately injure opponents.
I agree that some of Mike Graham's reported comments about 'judge and jury' are a little unfortunate, however we are always asking umpires to use their commonsense. Look what happens when they do, as appears to have happened on this occasion - castigated in the National Press! I presume that Claire could always have slanted her report the other way had the red card been given?!
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Another observer
11-15-2002 2:16 am
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Totting up?
Interestingly the player in question seems to spend a considerable amount of time in many games being 'yellow carded' - how about a totting up system leading to a match ban (the same as in the English football premier league) - this might lead to coaches not encouraging 'breaking down of play' (the so called professional foul) which is so prevalent in the Guildford side. By doing this coaches would have to educate players to close, channel and tackle in a fashion that would be effective at international level - rather than running around like 'bulls in a china shop'.
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Claire Middleton
11-15-2002 5:20 am
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"Sensational and controversial"
A pathetic defence, I know, but in the full article written for the Telegraph, I did make clear that Mark's yellows were for two different offences and I quoted evidence from a thread on another website which suggested that LOWER LEVEL umpires DO use yellows instead of red. I also quoted Mike Graham more fully.
Sadly, it is becoming harder and harder to get hockey in the paper these days and what does get in is frequently cut. Have you seen what gets in on a Monday? Not much.
Can I make a plea that if all these perfectly valid comments were not just posted here, but sent to sportletters@telegraph.co.uk (sports editor is David Welch), it might endorse my view that people want to see the sport maintain a proper presence in the paper.
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john
11-16-2002 2:17 am
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another observer
THE FACTS ARE THAT HOSKINS DOES NOT GET MANY YELLOW CARDS AND GUILDFORD DO NOT SET OUT TO BREAK DOWN THE PLAY.THEY ARE THE MOST ENTERTAINING SIDE TO WATCH IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE.5-1 UP AGANST DONCASTER AND DREW 5-5.ALSO CANTERBURY FANS WILL RECALL THE GAME WHICH THEY WERE LOSING 5-3 AGAINST GUILDFORD WITH 12 MINUTES LEFT THAT THEY WON 10-5.SO BASED ON THE FACTS I WOULD THEREFORE ALSO LIKE TO SEE THE TOTTING UP SYSTEM.I WONDER WHO YOU SUPPORT.
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Dean
11-16-2002 8:54 am
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In my humble way of thinking a player sent off on first yellow minimum 5, second offence extended yellow is a great tool. Red card is a red card not a soft yellow umpires need to umpire and apply the penalties as they appear. It should not be a concern of the umpire how many games they miss or if they are banned. They should only be concerned with the game at hand. Wheather or not they meant it or not is not a concern penalty is a penalty.
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Really?
11-17-2002 1:01 pm
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Another Hoskin Yellow!!
Well Mark Hoskin was yellow carded again today versus the mighty students!!
Guildford OBVIOUSLY DO try to break the play down and one single 10-5 result in the cup 4 years ago doth not an entertaining team make!
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Master Bates
11-19-2002 6:58 am
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sTuDeNtS
Can't blame him for getting sent off against a bunch of students that deserve a good rollocking, they do look nice in their pretty kit....even if none of 'em are gonne graduate anyway...POLY SCUM
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Claire Middleton
11-19-2002 7:03 am
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end of the line
I must stress my annoyance that not on person has taken my advice. If you care about the future of our game then you must e-mail your letters to: sportletters@telegraph.co.uk This way we can get a lot more exposure for hockey and employ some good journalists to write about the sport! There is no future for my dated views!!!
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scottish discipline chairman
11-19-2002 8:10 am
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totting up cards
yet again im sorry to say scotland has a toting up system for yellow cards and it does help to control players who might be tempted to put in the less than professional foul especially near the end of a game.
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Ex-Loughborough
11-19-2002 2:46 pm
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Students
Master Bates....another case of Loughborough envy. Were you not a good enough hockey player or not bright enough to get into Loughborough?
Good to see the boys performing well, playing good hockey and sitting 4th in the Premier League. Credit to Jason Lee for keeping them in the league and pushing for the play offs with players coming and going. Its interesting to see how many ex-Loughborough students are playing in the national league at the moment, if they were in the same team I am sure they would be one of the best teams in the country!!!
Long may the success continue and the jealousy of people like you continue.
Thanks for coming!!!
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Mervyn
11-19-2002 11:53 pm
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The use of red cards
Let us be sensible here and use control cards as they were meant to be used. If we substitute using the red card for a prolonged yellow, what would we do if a played deliberately struck another player, wouldn't the offender feel vindicated? but then was he properly penalised, and what if he is a repeat offender? what then? Please use the red card when necessary. Probably the answer is to make the reporting process less complicated.
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Master Bates
11-20-2002 4:47 am
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Ura kok
about as envious of Loughboro as I am of John Leslie's career prospects actually, 2 league winners medals, 22 caps and a first class honours degree from a RED BRICK university makes me the smug little guy that I am.....difference between me + Loughboro students is that I have enough behind me to back up how good I am, what have Loughboro ever won thats worth winning? Even indoors they blow up!!!
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H Smith
11-21-2002 4:47 am
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Master Bates
All these credentials and yet you wont tell us who you are is that because you are afraid of the reaction you will get or because you are not who you portray yourself to be?
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ex-loughborough
11-21-2002 6:59 am
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master bates
"Even indoors they blow up", I read they were indoor premier champions last year. even with a 1st class honours degree you should check your facts a bit better!
I agree with H Smith, who are you? I am sure the students would like to get some revision tips from you to help them with their degrees and to pit themselves against such an esteemed player with credentials such as yourself when you play them next...
Also why bad mouth them in the 1st place? Why do they deserve a good rollocking? Interested to hear your educated points of view.
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Master Bates the stick tackling southerner
11-22-2002 11:16 am
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batty Loughboro
ok indoors they were top......didn''t win the play offs though did they....didn't make it to Europe did they....still stuck in the same old dead end part of the country then.......I could tell you who I was but then u'd know that I was lying about all that other stuff + just trying to stir things up on this website....its all a bit cuddly for my liking SO COME + HAVE A GO IF U THINK UR HARD ENOUGH
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yahoo
11-22-2002 12:13 pm
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Scottish Cards
The Scottish system of red cards isn't all that great actually. You can be sent of for a "minor" offence (red card 2) but you are NOT allowed to appeal against the automatic 2 match ban that goes with it. A totally backward system when you consider that players can appeal against and get away with violent conduct but do not get the chance to put forward their own case when sent off for backchat to the umpire. A recent example is the extraordinary events during a scottish womens div 1 match when an umpire awarded a penalty flick for a dubious infringment by a GK and then red carded the keeper for back chat!! The GK had no right of appeal and even though the umpire agreed that ahe had overreacted a 2 match ban had to be served - MADNESS?!
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Howard Smith
11-25-2002 2:20 am
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Master Bates
Thought as much, what a w@~#er!!!
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Louis Cruickshank
11-25-2002 6:16 am
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Red Cards
I am an umpire in Scotland i have given red cardsclass 1 before and find out later that the red cards have been dowm graded also i was not informed of thisit was only when i weny to watch a game and this player was playing i asked how can this player be playing only to be told by his teammates that his class 1 had been down graded.
i felt that this was making a fool of the umpires as they give thes cards on what has happened and then not informed about the result of these cards.
So why bother to give a red card class 1 when it is going to be down graded then i would give a longer yellow.
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Rich
11-25-2002 6:33 am
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Master Bates
At a guess this appears to be young man who is known by the name Bandit, and could always talk a better game than he ever played
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scottish discipline chairman
11-25-2002 7:42 am
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Red cards
Red cards in scotland cannot be downgraded unless the umpire does not tell the team captain of the class of card and does not write it on the match report form. i have not downgraded a card as chairman nor will I.
As for no appeal, the incident which yahoo refers consisted of a player directling verbally abusing an umpire, to her face and making a personal comment, not just back chat, and no the umpire does not regret giving the card
Players that stupid should not complain when they are banned but I suggest that the player in question will not be stupid enough to do it again. And that after all is one of the points of a ban.
Ask your coach if its stupid to call the umpire names I belive he is an expert on the matter......
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Master Bates
11-25-2002 12:09 pm
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Rich + Howard Smith
Thats more like it boys, no need to cuddle like you do at Loughboro...
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Hockey Player
11-25-2002 2:34 pm
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Claire Middleton
I would like to write but do not read the telegraph, try changing over to the times and you will get my comments.
PS Are you the same Ms Claire Middleton who used to play/travel with Middleton Hockey Club even to France few years back
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louis cruickshank
11-26-2002 3:12 am
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red cards
the red cards i gave were 1 in national indor div3 when the card got down graded the other red card i gave was in midlands indoor this card was not down graded but i can assure you that the first card was down graded
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Giles Cadman
11-26-2002 5:16 am
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Red Cards
John Grice playing for Southgate got two yellow cards for the same offence! Keep up the good work Claire, nothing worse than the gravy train journo's.
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Yahoo
11-27-2002 5:07 am
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Scottish Discipline Chairman
Get your facts right - in the Titwood clubhouse after the match in question the umpire who had given the red card told the team manager that having thought about it she had made a mistake but couldn't reverse her descision. The other umpire (the senior grade of the two) then told the player in question that she wouldn't have given the red card but didn't feel that she could reverse the descion on the pitch. An apology was then given to the player. Decisions like this undermine the whole ethos of umpiring. The following week the same umpire who had given the card refereed for the team again and informed the manager that she didn't have PMT that week so would be ok to umpire??!!
As for the comment that was made to the umpire, well if you can get a red card for walking away from the umpire and calling them a donkey then there is obviously something wrong with the consistency of refs in Scottish hockey. The problem is that many of the female umpires cannot handle either the pressure of the games or the pressure from the players to make good decisions. How do the mens matches manage to get played? The personal comments made to umpires in their leagues seem to be part and parcel of the game!!
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Kim DeHaven
12-24-2002 9:19 pm
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Red Card
It seems that the penalty against a player after the game is much too stiff. Why not red card the player, and force that player to miss the next match (during this waiting period the player is not allowed to practice with his team.) The waiting period would hurt the overall team because their teammate was a jackass on the field. Players have to learn to control themselves, if a player gets a second red card, he or she misses two matches, and if a third should occur the player is removed from the team for the remainder of the season and must pay a fine of 50 to 100 pounds.
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Viper
05-20-2003 4:52 am
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i reckon this is really good dat refs dont like giving out reds coz it give a player time 2 analyz were he went wreong and change wat he has done wrong!!!!!!!1
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NZ Umpire
09-04-2003 6:27 pm
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After umpire at national and club premier level for three years, I have only ever issued one red card. This was issues because of a fight that took place right in front of me, the goalkeeper that was also involved in the fight recieved a yellow card from myself. The next day at the judiciary the goal keeper who got the yellow was upgraded to a red, so there you go, if you only issue a yellow and the association later believes that a red should of been issued they may do that.
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doc
02-11-2004 8:16 pm
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Yahoo
Your interpretation of the after match discussion is slightly incorrect. The other umpire (it's a team by the way, on the pitch their is NO senior ump) did not apologise, when told by the manager that the red card would be appealled she said something like " it's a red class 2, so you can't appeal. sorry." this was not an apology for the card, it's a turn of phrase. if the goalie hadn't walked away and then turned to the umpire and called her a donkey then the card may have been different, it was not a heat of the moment comment, but a calm calculated insult. personal comments have no part in sport, if an ump is bad fair enough but you don't ned to get personal, they don't pass comment on you every time you mess up a pass or shot at goal...(they certainly will not call you names!)
as for the standard of scottish umps (6 female FIH) perhaps they players would grumble less if the players themselves learned the rules and how to apply them to the game. seminars are held at clubs request. MIM take note... x
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emmanuel ateiweh
08-06-2004 2:32 pm
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i need some of your game cd
piz i need some of your items.
p.o.box co 1742tema
ghana.233
w/a
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duff
10-05-2004 1:35 pm
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Being from a different country than England I can say that the unpires hand out yellow cards too much for the wrong things. Take control early, dont listen to a players protests from 20 yards away. if he is in your grill then card them. if its frustration at your inept umpiring then shake your head and move on. Yellow cards are used for times when it is needed. Like when a player gets shoved from begind consistantly, or when a player swings and hits another player with the stick, or when a player lifts his stick to chest height when in a contest with another player in an attempt to hook the opponent. Hand out cards earlier in a game and all you have left is to hand out higher cards. TOUGHEN UP UMPIRES. who cares if someone says a decision is crap, look at it and see if maybe it was or not. You umpires are there for the protection or the players and the enforcement of the rules...do that and dont worry about a player and their frustrations!
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stephen pratt
02-12-2005 2:34 pm
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RED CARDS
I HAVE JUST RED CARDED A PLAYER FOR FOUL LANGUAGE AGAINST MY DECISION. IM NOT THERE TO BE WORN AT AND DONT NEED TO BE .
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x40
