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Opinions expressed here do not represent the official views of PlanetFieldHockey.com or its staff. Comments will be removed if they are considered offensive or of a personal nature.
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Hmmm
11-12-2004 7:39 pm
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love you but...
the brackets were anounced Tuesday. this is what you come up with??
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Kronk
11-13-2004 8:28 pm
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I'll bet the Wake Forest coach is the maddest person out there, making the finest team in the country play in a snowstorm.
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ACC Fan
11-14-2004 5:32 am
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Maddest Coach
Duke not getting a number one seed and getting stuck with playing North Carolina just to make it to the final four beats the snowstorm. All four ACC teams should have had number one seeds. The idea that Wake, defending national champion and ranked number one, had to play into the ACC conference championship indicates the strength of the conference. UNC, Duke, Md and Wake all won yestgerday.
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playoffs
11-14-2004 11:38 am
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acc fan
stop your crying.....not all four should of been #1 seeds....the best teams will win, and the acc has some of the best...except for virginia.....there are many factors that go into the seeds, and lets face it acc fh is not acc basketball and cost of travel to sites is a part of that....so again, stop it makes us in the acc look bad to give the appearnce of crying over spilt milk
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ACC Fan
11-14-2004 3:44 pm
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Beg to disagree
I don't think complaining about the seeds is crying about spilt milk. It is a travesty that the four most highly ranked teams are not chosen as the number one seeds. Duke North Carolina is a GREAT match up; just shouldn't happen in the regionals.
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Deacon Parent
11-14-2004 9:26 pm
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Go Deacons!! Three-peat is on it's way!
The weather in Boston was no that bad since we heard it was the earliest snowfall in history in Beantown.
Thanks to Harvard for a great site and kudos to Northeastern, I had never even heard about them and I thought they were from Chicago but soon found out that is Northwestern.
Northeastern is a great team, great speed, great defense and alot of heart but we were just too strong so watch out Terps and my prediction is MSU over Duke 2-1.
See you down in W/S!
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Unbelievable
11-14-2004 9:32 pm
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Seeding
The top bracket with the # 1 Seed - UNC and a should be # 1 seed - Duke. Sounds like some of the coaches on the NCAA Division I Championship Committee might have been protecting the less talented teams.
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Umpiring Fan
11-14-2004 9:35 pm
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Division III
Who made the selections for the regional championships? Do the members of the tournament committee even know the talents of some of the umpires. National umpires should not be idle during the tournament. Division III should welcome National Umpires because usually these individuals are immediately scheduled for Division II and Division I. Shame on the assignments.
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Hockey Fan
11-14-2004 9:39 pm
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ACC Fan
Perhaps the NCAA should pick the "best teams" as the # 1 seeds and put the regionals at these sites. Not only the teams are assigned because of money, the umpires and table umpires are assigned with money being a great consideration -- why else would a local umpire be on the table -- thank goodness injuries haven't occurred.
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FH Fan
11-15-2004 12:39 am
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It's quite simple...
1 v. 16 vs winner of 8 v. 9 (1)
2 v. 15 vs winner of 7 v. 10 (2)
3 v. 14 vs winner of 6 v. 11 (3)
4 v. 13 vs winner of 5 v. 12 (4)
then the winners of (1) and (4) play each other and the winners of (2) and (3) play each other and then the winners play each other. I'm not quite sure why the NCAA hasn't figured this out yet...maybe we need a new, impartial committee??
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hello
11-15-2004 8:53 am
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NCAA
The way the set the tournament up is crazy, look at the division II tournament...the north and south are both guarenteed a place in the finals...it does not matter if the two best teams are in the south...that is insane. I believe the reason the committee did this in the first place is to make sure one region does not dominate, but if the best teams teams happen to be from the same region then they should be split. The way it is set up right now, makes the actual finals a joke. I think this is probably what happened in Division I this year, there is no way that Duke and NC should have been at the same regional, Duke, Maryland, NC and Wake should have been split up, this way you may have had the stongest final 4 (of course there is never a guarentee about who will win) but you would like to see the 4 strongest teams in the finals...however with duke and NC at the same site, that will not happen (Duke won and NC lost out) I dont see why the NCAA does not not understand this logic, then you could say you have a true final 4 or finals, not a fabricated one like they have now.
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ACC Fan
11-15-2004 8:54 am
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Amen!
Shelton expressed her frustration with the committee after the game.
“There are a group of women that are supposed to be experts in field hockey,” Shelton said. “They deemed Duke not to be the No. 4 seed. Everybody in the nation knew that Duke was the No. 4 seed and should have been the No. 4 seed and should be playing in Michigan today. This committee, somehow, didn’t give it to them. I don’t know why.... This was the toughest bracket, there is no doubt about it. The top seed, you have the best record in the country, you are supposed to be rewarded for it—student athlete welfare”
Bozman was ecstatic with the win, but shared similar concerns about the brackets.
“We are so pleased to be going to the Final Four, but at the same time I have to say that I think North Carolina deserves to be going to the Final Four too,” Bozman said. “It’s a bit of a travesty that we were in the same pool.”
The Blue Devils may have overcome their biggest obstacle en route to the national championship game. Duke lost to the No. 8 Spartans in the second game of the season, but the Blue Devils were without Morgan.
Since head coach Beth Bozman arrived at the start of the 2003, the team has gone 5-1 in the NCAA Tournament. Playing in their first Final Four last season, the Blue Devils fell to the Demon Deacons in a tight national championship game.
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Why?
11-15-2004 9:18 am
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Hockey Fan
What "local" umpire was on the table? Do you know anything about the people who were working the games? Please do not cast any doubts on the umpires who work these games! They work very hard on their game and try to let a flowing and safe game develop.
You strike me as the type of person who complains when there are too many whistles, and then complains when there aren’t enough fouls called.
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The same every year.
11-15-2004 9:34 am
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Sorry FH Fan and others.
The tournament seedings, and the choice of the four home sites has been done the same way for many years. If people paid attention they wouldn't be surprised. I'm not saying that it is fair, but complete fairness isn't in the set of criteria that the committee is looking at.
The NCAA Committee has their own poll (not the Coaches Poll that everyone sees) from which they seed the top four teams in the 16 team tournament. After that they are required to take the automatic bid teams (conference winners that qualify based on having 6 or more teams in the conference - ACC does not qualify!) and the winners of the play-in games (between winners of conferences that have enough teams but don't have good records in competition with teams from other conferences the year before). There are a limited number of spaces for at-large teams, especially when the ACC takes 4 of them.
When the committee looks at possible sites they are looking at who has decent facilities/ hotel space available and which ones will require the lowest travel cost - competitive fairness from top to bottom is no where on the list. A couple of years ago Michigan and Michigan State both had home football games on the NCAA Regional Tournament weekend - couldn't host.
If a school is hard to get to (small airport or distant) it might not host. This is the second year in a row that Wake Forest has gone to New England. That costs much less than for 3 northern schools trying to fly into Winston-Salem. Duke and Carolina will never both host. When Duke and Wake lost their ACC semis they were going to be travelling. If Maryland had beaten Carolina, then Carolina would still probable have hosted a region (unless they were significantly lower than Duke or Wake in the NCAA poll).
Until the NCAA decides to treat our sport seriously, this won't change. It's not the fault of the Committee. They are just doing what they are required to do.
... and this isn't likely to change as the coaches in our own sport don't advocate for us. There is NCAA legislation to increase the maximum number of scholarships in women's soccer and lacrosse from 12 to 14. The field hockey coaches voted to not have this available to themselves. Too many of the coaches in programs not fully scholarshiped voted against it for their own selfish reasons. This means that a hundred or so new scholarships won't be available for young women who play hockey.
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Another FH Fan
11-15-2004 10:18 am
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Travel & Costs
The above scheduling makes sense but it does nothing to minimize travel and expense. These are students and unlike basketball, baseball & football, there is no professional life after college fh. I think its fine that the NCAA seeks to minimize travel. I know my player appreciates it.
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well, let's think about this
11-15-2004 12:31 pm
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okay, it doesn't make sense to bring 3 northern schools to the south, so we'll send one of the acc's up north. would it have been so much more money to send UNC up north and send wake to the chapel hill site. it probably is six of one and 1/2 dozen of the other. why should any team want to be seeded #1 to receive the more difficult bracket. lets face it; wake got a walk in the park(forest). i don't think many players or fans would be complaining about the cold weather because at this point of the season; all are excited & happy to be this far into the tournament; so i don't want to hear how uncooperative the weather was this past weekend. why should the ACC's be penalized for have strong teams? reconsider for future NCAA's.....#1 vs. #16 and so on.
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Cal Culator
11-15-2004 1:19 pm
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Simple Concept
During the regular season you keep playing, win, lose, or draw.
The NCAA tournament is another animal. Win four games or cry.
All four ACC teams could have stayed in Chapel Hill and the likely National Champion would still emerge from the battle.
In the end it doesn't matter who you play. You still need to string four wins together.
Ms. Obvious
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MP
11-15-2004 2:28 pm
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How about Uconn having to play Northeastern in the first round of the tournamnet for the past three years?
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Re: Kronk
11-15-2004 2:32 pm
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Weather in Boston
It was not a snowstorm you southern baby and they weren't complaining last year at the final four in 65 degree weather and by the way the weather today in Boston is 60 just so you know.
It might get colder up here but at least we don't have to live in the South, say hi to your wife oh I mean sister, or are they the same.
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Rodney
11-15-2004 5:43 pm
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playoffs
1 did play 16/ unc vs. richmond....etc....THE coaches poll needs to go, it is an inaccurate barometer for the rankings. The system has been this way for awhile....would unc be complaining if they won? Probalby not.....but regardless...it is the way it is, the best hockey is in the south and those teams should be rewarded, not penalized. I mean if uconn can have all those wins, great, but WHO DID THEY PLAY worth anything....NO ONE....so wins should have nothing to do with it....lets reward and put forth the best teams, and lets do away with the coaches poll.
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Re:Re:Kronk
11-15-2004 7:58 pm
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your comment was uncalled for
Why the slam against the South? I thought this was a field hockey site, not a site for bigots. Keep your focus on the game and give praise to the student athletes who work very hard all year round. Congratulations to all of the Final Four teams. Looking forward to an exciting weekend at Wake!
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Sandy in NJ
11-15-2004 9:51 pm
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The same every year
I agree with "same every year". The NCAA committee has their own poll, with statistical criteria mandated by the NCAA. The people on that committee work hard & are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. The coaches poll is a voting poll and everyone ends up quoting that like the bible but in the end it is the NCAA play-offs, not the coaching play-offs & so it's the NCAA rules and regs that are followed, good or bad. The coaches poll is reported to be as "political" as the NCAA poll is accused of being, it's all a matter of perspective. There is good hockey everywhere and the ACC's strength is evidenced by 3 out of 4 of their teams in the final 4. UNC's coach complains every year, this is just something more to whine about. As for Bosman's support of her comments, I really can't remember ever hearing her show support for the ACC during her tenure at Princeton, it used to be the Ivy's don't get the respect they deserve, etc. The fact remains is the Final Four includes 4 excellent teams, on any given day the picture may have changed, but all these athletes worked hard to get there so let's just sit back and watch what will be an excellent tournament. While UNC worked hard all year and had an excellent record, they didn't win the one that would take them to the Final Four & that's the name of that tune. Sixteen teams started the weekend, 12 are not advancing and I feel certain Karen Shelton isn't the only one disappointed. Grow up and stop insulting the other conferences and your peers in coaching and their players as well.
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Observer
11-15-2004 10:52 pm
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Random thoughts
1. There is no way Duke and NC should have been in the same brackett. It basiclly made Duke an 8 seed. Maybe that was a slap at Bosman. God knows there is no love for her.
2. It appears that a major consideration was to get a Big 10 team in the final four.
3 Kronk you are a jackass. Read the post, they said the weather "was not that bad:
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Sandy in NJ
11-15-2004 11:27 pm
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in error
Make that "3 of the 4 ACC teams who made the sweet 16 made the play-offs". I did not mean to dismiss or leave out a very solid UVA team who is working hard too.
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Re: Observer
11-16-2004 7:32 am
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Open your eyes, randomly
How can the weather be "not that bad" when there was SNOW ON THE FREAKING GROUND? What are you, nuts?
Oh, and one other thing: Southern hockey is the best. It's just that the Yankees can send more of their kids to USFHA camps where they burn out (see: No. 12 on UNC).
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Ask you
11-16-2004 10:41 am
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Ok, first things first. There is NO WAY this site should be used to fight another civil war. So would everyone please keep their bigoted comments on their respective sides of the Mason-Dixon line? I think you'll all find that while many of the strongest teams are located in the South, many of the strong players are in fact from the North (thanks Pennsylvania).
Yes, the coaches poll should go and when I was a player I refused to even look at it. I don't think the popularity contest does anyone any good. The fact is though, the NCAA poll is just as political. Lets take a look at who's on the committee... Lesley Irvine from Stanford... do you think she might have had a bit of revenge with Duke for "stealing" her star player?
Also, there is no reason UNC, as #1 seed, should have had to play Duke anytime before the final four. Someone pointed out that Wake went up to New England two years in a row. Weren't they the #1 seed last year? If we're playing by those rules then UNC should have gone to NE not Wake.
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Karen Shelton
11-16-2004 12:07 pm
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Sandy in NJ
Sandy, I can assure you that I am a grown woman and that I am in no way trying to insult or disparage anyone's conference, and or team. And if this is whining, so be it. My opinions are my own, but understand that I have an overriding sense of fair play. I believe that the teams with the most success in the regular season, coupled with a strong schedule, should be rewarded. Simple as that.
I have served on the NCAA committee and am aware of the guidelines, and of course, the underlying politics that go with the committee members as they represent the various regions. The guidelines and restrictions the committee must abide by still allow for some flexibility when the committee goes to bracket the teams. I am also acutely aware of the geographic benefits that New England, Maryland, and Michigan enjoy. That is why the seeding is so important.
My issue with the committee is the way they seeded the top four teams. The top three were incredibly obvious. The forth seed should have come down to a comparision between Duke and Michigan. The primary criteria is as follows: head to head competition, RPI ranking, win/loss record, record versus common opponents, and results against teams selected to the tournament. A secondary consideration is late season performance. Now you do the math! Duke clearly has the advantage. Undoubtedly, Uconn had a great year! However, they did not play or beat any team in the top six, coupled with the fact that they lost to Northeastern. They should not have been in consideration for a top seed.
My team lost on Sunday to a very talented and well coached Duke team. I do not have any problem with that. It was a great game and could have gone either way. My contention is that Duke should have been bracketed separately, and IF the two teams advanced, Duke and Carolina should have met in the NCAA semi-final.
I am absolutely heartbroken for my student-athletes, especially the seniors, who earned a top seed and deserved a better bracket based on the success of the regular season. If Duke had lost the game, the same injustices would have been said for them. They did not deserve to be bracketed with the top seed. The committee had the power to do the right thing. There were no restrictions preventing them from seeding correctly. Both Coach Bozman and I expressed our concerns after the bracket was released, and have been stonewalled by the NCAA committee chair, Amanda Backus. The committee is refusing to release the RPI ranking tool used in the process.
I take pride in the great year Carolina had. At 21-2, we will end the season with the best record in the country, against the toughest schedule, along with an ACC Championship. As it turns out, the ACC Championship was the true Final Four! I couldn't be prouder on this team.
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Sandy from NJ
11-16-2004 1:14 pm
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"ask you"
I agree with your comments in your first paragraph, but beg to differ in paragraph 2. For you to bring up the name of one member of the NCAA committee and try to suggest that is the reason Duke played UNC in NC, is ridiculous (unless of course you have an ax to grind). First, by virtue of the fact that it's a "committee" the Stanford coach (also new to the committee & as a head coach) represents only one vote & as she is just growing in her career probably has limited influence at this point. As for her "star" player being stolen, it would appear more like her star "problem" was stolen and she's found a good match in her present coach and may they both do well in field hockey and life, that's just the way it goes. The conspiracy theory you put forward is just plain nonsense and for years the NCAA committee had had to endure this kind of childishness after the fact, not to mention some poorly behaved coaches on the sidelines during the games. Role models my a--.
And if you want to take a look at anything, each region has a rep on the NCAA committee, equally as capable of advocating for their schools in the region. The real deal is this year there are more administrators than coaches involved so there isn't all the agenda pushing that coaches of the sport (any sport) bring to the table. And, UNC LOST, get it???? They had an awesome season and worked hard but they lost this particular game and that's it. Why does UNC or Duke think they should be accorded special privileges and considerations??? Olympic medal whinners they both are (the coaches not the team). The do not have the market cornered on talent or skill or desire.
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Another FH Fan
11-16-2004 1:22 pm
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Southern rosters
The ACC rosters are full of Yankees. The difference is that long ago the ACC schools started to make a commitment to womens sports that does not exist outside that conference. The answer lies in how committed your school's athletic dept is to the sport. Are they just going through the title IX motions, and barely at that, or do they really want to have winners in the sport? I venture to say that is where the ACC excels.
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rabid fan
11-16-2004 8:21 pm
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Yes, Ask You...it does seem odd that Wake at #`1 and Wake at #2 got the same site in consecutive years.... a walk in the park indeed......do you think it has anything to do with Jen Averill being on the committee......I wonder???? I think they didn't want all 4 ACC teams in the Final Four....you shouldn't be penalized for ending up No. 1.....last year UNC went to Michigan St.....Duke should have been packing this year.....these are injustices that can't be undone....get some unbiased individuals on that committee..
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Bozman = choke
11-16-2004 11:11 pm
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Final 4
Duke girls are great but Bozman can only tkae them so far...histiory show she does not know how to get them over the top. She nice but I see things FREEZING up for her and her team...come on when she talk in the back on each duke girls mind is" she been here and LOST every time" so she can show them how to choke beter than winning it.....
good luck
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Observer
11-16-2004 11:13 pm
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RE: Open your eyes
I was commenting on Kronks assasination Of Deacon Parent . Read the posts and you might understand. He/she was slamming them for complaining about the snowstorm when in fact they were saying the weather was not bad.
My prediction Deacs 3 MSU 1
Deacs 3 Terps 2
MSU 3 Duke 2 OT
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Sandy in NJ
11-17-2004 12:19 am
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to Karen Shelton & to rabid fan
Rabid Fan...you need to be aware that if a coach is on the NCAA committee and their team is selected to the NCAA tournament, they are removed from discussions on their team, voting on their team & removed from the conference call altogether when decisions are made about their team. Perhaps you need to rethink your "logic".
As for Coach Shelton, I truly appreciate hearing your viewpoint and perspective. I especially appreciate your empathy for your team and the seniors in particular. It has to be heartbreaking for them. Your season was fantastic. I still feel the committee is a professional committee doing the best they can and if substanitive changes need to be made, you and others who feel strongly should serve a term or in your case another term and work to make those changes. We just hear this same story every year about the committee and their perceived shortcomings, no matter who is serving. We usually hear the coaches complaining because they had to travel, not because they didn't have to. The fact that you are proud of your team is how it should be, and speaks volumes. That said, I truly do not know how they get anyone to serve on this NCAA committee because it is a recipe for a bad time, no matter what. Thank you for taking the time to write in.
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ACC Fan
11-17-2004 8:46 am
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Karen Shelton
I have been long time observer of the ACC field hockey. My allegiances are not to UNC. That being said, Karen Shelton again proves why she has been so successful. Candor with all and commitment to her players. An unabiding sense of fairness. To the the Tar Heels, great season and best wishes next year. To the NCAA committee, a travesty beyond words---what were you thinking? alas i suspect that we will never know.
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support vs. whining.....
11-17-2004 2:40 pm
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why wouldn't you expect a coach to display concern regarding the brackets and seeding, this is being supportive of her team. looking thru the previous posts; i notice that there is some surprise to the actual seeding prior to any games being played, so there are some out there who wonder how it was determined before the outcome of any games played,
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Hurting for UNC
11-17-2004 3:43 pm
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To Sandy in NJ--you are truly cruel. Duke and UNC never said they had the market cornered on talent or skill--however, I will tell you that UNC has the market cornered on heart. You have absolutely no idea of the emotional scars left on the UNC team, particularly the seniors. It wasn't the fact that we lost to an equally talented Duke team; it was the fact that we weren't given the respect of a #1 seed which they truly earned. The UNC team sat excitedly waiting for the brackets to be announced with smiles and anticipation of fair competition, only to be shut down by the ridiculous pairings. Wake got to play lower ranked teams last year as the #1 seed and again this year, not being the #1 seed. The same courtesy was not extended to UNC this year. It was evident not much thought went into the pairings when initially NE was playing BC. Coach Shelton is the epitome of fairness. She is rightfully defending her team's accomplishments. If the NCAA continues in this fashion, there will be no incentive to be a top seed. They were not looking out for the welfare of the student athlete. It is a slam to women's sports, Title 9 and the sport of field hockey in general. I don't care if it isn't a high revenue sport, it should be treated with the respect it deserves. My hope is that, although it is at UNC's expense, something good will come out of this and next year the top seed will be treated fairly. Congrats to the remaining four and congratulations to UNC on their ACC championship and the best record in the country. To the team and coaches at UNC--you remain a class act.
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ComeOn
11-18-2004 6:10 am
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Title IX?
Please don't toss jargon into one of the best healthy blogs that has been on PFH with regard to hockey in the US.
This isn't an issue of gender equity. This is an issue of administrators and committee members that haven't thought their responsibilities through to the best interests of the participants. Face it, the ONLY sport, at the NCAA tournament level, where the top seeds truely mean something is basketball - men's and women's. Until Myles and other important people in Indy have a look at the importance of the non-revenue sports, this won't change. They may spend the time on hockey; however, it may not be the quality time that the rest of the country would wish it to be. ALL parties involved need to begin discussing this game with their egos checked at the door. Until that time falls upon us, we will continue to have discussions of how teams were mis-ranked, left out, or that a decision was made because of feelings towards a coaching staff.
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No Stake In The Game
11-18-2004 6:13 am
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Too Sandy of NJ. Something doesn't smell right
Well, I think it's time to close the books on this one and get back to focusing on the final four. There is still some field hockey left too play. Like some, however, I'll first throw in my two cents. Let me also say that coaches commented publicly on this seeding decision before the game, including both Carolina and Duke. This is not about who won, but more about what's right.
It's obvious to me, after reading each post, that Sandy Of NJ has a stake in someone or something having to do with those pairings. She is way too defensive of an indefensible committee action. Duke is in the final four and has earned the right to move on. The NCAA committee made a HUGE mistake, in an apparent effort to manipulate the number of ACC teams in the final four. It is shame on the NCAA and shame on field hockey but, still, it's over. Hopefully, the coaches of the ACC, including Duke, Wake, UNC and Maryland will get to the bottom of this in the off season. Nobody, with even a little sense believes that UNC and Duke were treated fairly, and if Sandy in NJ believes that there was anything difficult about this decision, then she is pretty much all alone. Middle school field hockey players could have seeded better. And if these committee folks are in a thankless position, then possibly/probably it's time for them to move on. Because a job is tough is no excuse for poor performance and favortism, especially at the expense of student athletes. The NCAA committee was "big time" wrong and should be big enough to acknowledge this travesty instead of the apparent stonewalling that seems to be in affect. Too bad for UNC student athletes. Too bad for college field hockey. Obviously, the ACC had the top four seeds. If this committee felt that wasn't good for college field hockey, too bad. You do not abandon character, integrity and fair play, in an effort to promote a fabricated sense of regional equality. The ACC earned their rankings and fairness dictated that acknowledgement. Yes, too bad, too bad indeed.
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Grounded
11-18-2004 6:34 am
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Although I agree whole heartedly with Hurting and Mrs Shelton, I wonder why every time such a situation arises, that Pam is a hero and Beth Bozman is a 'jerk'. Both ladies expressed the same feelings for their teams and how the NCAA had made a serious seeding error. Both ladies actually agreed (not a regular accurance haha) yet Beth is once again wrong. When will people finally look beyond personal animosity and finally give Duke the credit that they deserve......20 student athletes, wearing Duke blue, have advanced to the final 4 for the second consecutive year.....CONGRATULATIONS. The players deserve to be honored....the coaches have obviously done something right to help these wonderful young ladies get to the final 4.
In closing, I agree that the seedings were totally unfair.......but life is unfair.
Pam has done a great job with her NC squad.....they are all great players with huge hearts and abundant talent...but most importantly they are great young ladies. It was sad seeing them broken hearted on the field last Saturday.....and i agree, that the ACC championship may well have been the real final 4.
Good luck to all of the remaining teams
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Anonymous
11-18-2004 6:38 am
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Anonymous Character Assassination
Sandy Of New Jersey and her cowardly slam of the UNC and Duke coaches is despicable. Coach Shelton had the guts to state her case and her name. Any moron can hide behind the anonymous screen name of a chat board, but it takes someone with standards and morale character to step aside from the vale and acknowledge their identity. There should be a law against anonymous negativity. As it is, I just see the person for what they are as opposed to who they are. In case you're wondering, here is what you said,
"UNC's coach complains every year, this is just something more to whine about. As for Bosman's support of her comments, I really can't remember ever hearing her show support for the ACC during her tenure at Princeton, it used to be the Ivy's don't get the respect they deserve, etc."
To Sandy of New Jersey. Maybe you don't function with a high enough personal standard to be a role model to student athletes. Who are you? Will you tell us that?
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Sandy in NJ
11-18-2004 10:31 am
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to my fans
The great thing about this site is the debate it encourages, the feelings it brings out from the participants, and the opportunity to speak one's mind without fear of retribution (other than some name calling from those who don't agree with your opinion). I think it's a great service...debate is never bad. On either side of the fence, all good and healthy. Thought my second posting to Coach Shelton was quite civilized and I thought she was very empathetic toward her team, quite admirable & I thanked her for taking the time to write in, always good to hear directly from the source. To Anonymous, No Stake in the Game and Grounded, you do all the things in your posts you accuse me of doing and then some, you just have a different viewpoint. Again that's one of the real contributions this site makes to the world of field hockey, and all a good thing. Thank heavens we are still allowed to speak our mind & isn't it great we all have something we feel such passion for? Let's look forward to a fantastic Final Four, congratulate the great teams who made it there and celebrate their success. The differences of opinion on how it came to be, will be dealt with along the way. You all have the hap-hap-happiest of days.
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The same every year - part 2.
11-18-2004 11:10 am
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Still don't understand...
I don't dispute that the players at UNC feel a lot of pain at the way their season ended. I don't dispute that the way the brackets were set wasn't "fair". What most people reading this thread still don't understand is that complete competative fairness is not the mission for the NCAA Committee. It never has been. Most of the discussion here is off target. If people wanted to make a difference they would be trying to get the NCAA to take it's non-revenue sports seriously, not bashing the Committee.
In the months to come the RPI rankings of all college teams will come out. What if Michigan really is ahead of Duke? All the Committee is supposed to do is seed the top four (and set the sites). After that it is about minimizing the number of flights. If Michigan was 4 and Duke was 5, then Duke was going to go to UNC. This is just the same as all the years ODU and UNC played in the first weekend (and Iowa played Northwestern, and UConn played UMass, and Maryland and ODU, etc).
I commend Karen Shelton for explaining her position. She should know how the system works though. It's worked in her favor before. At the end of the day you have to win the game. If Duke had lost, I'm sure their players would have been just as unhappy
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The same every year - part 3
11-18-2004 11:43 am
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You're missing the point
If Michigan was really ahead of Duke (which I don't believe for a second), Duke should have NEVER been assigned to play UNC. Just as the seedings were created last year, the number 1 seed (UNC) should have been sent to the northeast to face the lower ranked teams and Wake Forest should have hosted Duke to minimize travel concerns. In this scenario there would have been identical travel, and UNC would have received the preferential treatment that a first seed should enjoy
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Anonymous
11-18-2004 1:31 pm
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No, you're Missing The Point
If fairness is not a major criteria, then something is wrong in the world of college field hockey.
On the face of it, this is about Duke and the Duke coach. The selection committee seems to have hoped that UNC would make short work of Duke. UNC would be the best candidate to finish off the job and send Duke home with their hats in their hands. The problem is that Duke deserved the number four seed and they are a great and competitive team. And as it is, they won the game the committee gave them to lose. UNC, Duke and Maryland should fill their schedule with less successful opponents in the future, by way of your sad explanations and simply wait for the NCAA lottery. The problem is, it is not supposed to be a lottery. And, you are wrong, it IS SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR. It really is supposed to be fair. Again, you loose sight of what we're dealing with here. These are young college athletes that have sacrificed many months training to get precisely here. And for the committee to take it away or try to take away from them because of politics and personalities, simply points out the need for this committee to step down. When a team wins the number one seed, they deserve to get it. This committee has brought shame on themselves and the sport and I hope the ACC coaches don't let it go.
Go Duke and send the trophy to the NCAA offices with you win it. Give to them and let them know exactly what they should do with it and where they should try to put it.
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confused.....
11-18-2004 1:54 pm
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going to NCAA field hockey site; trying to see what exactly the rankings were for the tournament....it is noted under 2004 Women's Field Hockey Polls", the following.....
Division I Field Hockey Randings
"The NCAA Division I Field Hockey Committee does not produce rankings for this sport."
Obviously, they do because NCAA determines the brackets and seeding. If anyone can provide a site to go to so the general public can get a full understanding what is taken into consideration what stats #1 seeding had, and down the line to the #16 seed. In the minds of someone and/or the committe; Duke would then be 8, but in the regular season duke did beat Wake and they were placed #2...How is a normal lay person to understand this system and try to accept what has been done this tournament season.
if anyone can provide a site to see the actual rankings at the day of the announcement of the tournaments, please provide. I think if the seeding had been done fairly, not all this negativity would be going on right now.
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Ms D. Chance
11-18-2004 2:05 pm
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Fairness
When the dust settles on Sunday one team will be standing.
Since when did fair count? It's all relative anyway.
Is it fair that someone was elected to a second term who should be back pumping oil in Texas?
Fair is as fair does. WTF?
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amazed
11-18-2004 2:21 pm
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in reading a previous post; it seems like the unfairness of the this entire bracket and seeding mess appears to be directed to the duke coach. why would adults want to punish the players to get to a coach
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Hockey Fan
11-18-2004 3:15 pm
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Enough already
Everyone needs to stop complaining about the selection committee and what team should have been where. The fact is, UNC lost...Duke won...and they are in the Final 4. You can't change anything so there's no point of arguing it anymore. Move on everyone!!! And commend the 4 teams in the country that still have a game to play. (And 2 for 2 of those teams)
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Speculation
11-18-2004 4:29 pm
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amazed
It is only speculation that the Duke coach was the elephant in the room. I certainly wasn't there and I assume that you weren't either.
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fair?
11-18-2004 4:35 pm
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Politics and this site
That's the problem with some field hockey people. You want to bring in your own brand of polictics. It never dawns on you that you're wrong. I'd rather have the oil pumper than the lier and do nothing. But, why bring that up on a field hockey site? Fair?
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Over It
11-18-2004 4:40 pm
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Anonymous
Boy you get nasty quickly. And your conspiracy theory relative to the Duke Coach and their seeding in the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. Grassy knoll anyone? It would appear that the individual writing in under The Same Every Year, Parts 1 & 2 may be someone connected with the committee with some genuine knowledge of what transpired & is trying to explain what they are dealing with and the constraints they have. I recognize you may not be interested in hearing the other side of the debate but for someone who talks about other's "personal standards" your last paragraph really reflects what appears to be yours.
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Anonymous
11-19-2004 6:32 am
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Over it, you say?
Nasty? Me? No, I simply don't bury my head in the sand and pretend the world is something other than what it is. Kind of the "where there's smoke, there's fire" mentality. You, on the other hand, appear so enamoured with the process that you won't point out the obvious. The obvious is that there is something very wrong with this picture. Because of that, one doesn't have to dig too deep to uncover underlying politics that may have led to such a ridicules decision by the seeding committee. You notice I say "ridicules." It's not as though this seeding was plausible or even possible without other motives. Grassy Knoll? I say that this seeding smacks of politics, poor judgement or final four manipulation. You say other wise and you're wrong. As for my last paragraph. I think you might be right. I don't think that a group so capable of making such a wrong/bad/corrupt decision, needs any respect at all. But, maybe this isn't about Beth, but then it's about Karen and if it's not about one of them, then it's about the NCAA committee manipulation of the ACC teams in the final four. Whatever, it's despicable.
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Over It
11-19-2004 10:12 am
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Anonymous
Just stating other people are "simply wrong" doesn't make it so. Your pronouncements of this being about the Duke Coach or the UNC Coach or some political agenda , or blatant corruption, doesn't make it so either. I am not enamoured with the process by any means, just feel that these folks did the best they could within the confines of what the NCAA gives them to work with and shouldn't have to go through all this after the fact. Which of the Final Four teams would you suggest sending home? Which group of 20 athletes, their coaches, parents and school do you pronounce unfit to be there? Hockey Fan said it well...enough, let's just celebrate the teams that are there and move on. I stick to my original comment that you get nasty quickly and being a bully on PFH is no great accomplishment. Like many people expressing their opinions here, we just will have to agree to disagree, you don't get the final vote on who is right and who is wrong.
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Speculation
11-19-2004 11:06 am
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Observer
I must say I agree with Observer. While all of the explanations require speculation, the only explanation that does not fit is that the seedings were done correctly. That is simply not a plausible explanation. I also am not so quick to assume that the committee was incompetent. On that one, I give them the benefit of the doubt. That leaves punishing Boz or protecting the Big Ten. I think it was a bit of both. I am not a big BOZ fan, but she got a raw deal here and even I will defend her on this one. It is even worse for the Duke team. Glad they triumphed so they did not get tainted with animosity towards their coach. On the other hand, Karen Shelton and UNC are the ones who really ended up the worst for the situation. On that one, it is just not fair.
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Rabid fan
11-19-2004 11:48 am
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As the rabid fan, I was not stating that Jen Averill had any input on her own team......I think though that her being a fellow committee member gives her an edge....she is one of them and if there are any close decisions I think that the committee will side with one of their own instead of an outside coach
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Anonymous
11-19-2004 5:29 pm
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To over it
For some reason, I apparently am not making myself clear. First, I wouldn't send any of the four remaining teams home. For what? They earned their way into the final four and are deserving of their spot. I wish them all good luck and acknowledge their extremely successful season. That is not the point.
Let me try one more time. The process and the NCAA committee has an obligation to proceed unimpeded and regardless of any hint of a personal agenda or favouritism or manipulation. If it does not proceed above reproach, then it has not fulfilled it's obligation. And this committee, by all informed accounts, made a significant error...... Then what? Should we turn our heads, like you suggest and pass it off to an innocent mistake? I think, if it was not so obvious, we might just do that. But, this decision to bracket UNC and Duke in the same regional pool was not fair, was not right, and is not acceptable behavior by a body empowered to implement important task. You state that my protests are akin to "Monday Morning Quarterbacking." I submit to you that it's way beyond something so silly. Lets face it, all that resulted was UNC or Duke being bounced a week early. One has to lose anyway, so what's the big deal? Right? The big deal is the right and wrong of it. An NCAA committee has an obligation to fulfil it's obligation without any suggestion of a personal agenda as a factor in considering the seeds. What is absolutely true, is that they did not accomplish that objective. You must be able see what this and you can't deny that I'm absolutely right. This committee has implicated themselves in applying their responsibilities in an irresponsible manner to the detriment of student athletes. Too many informed people question what they have done. A committee with that power and responsibility must be beyond this kind of controversy. GET IT? BEYOND THIS TYPE OF CONTROVERSY!!!!! I say you are wrong because, you are. You defend an indefensible action. Do you think I'm the only one championing this issue. I think not and that fact alone is enough to confirm the problem. A reasonable explanation is required since the controversy exists. And because the controversy exists, this committee DID NOT complete its task.
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Speculation
11-19-2004 7:06 pm
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Exclamation Point
Duke 5 MSU 2. exclamation point. need there be more proof than on the field.
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Over it
11-19-2004 7:22 pm
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To Anonymous
For God's sake enough already. You are mixing up statements and attributing them to me that I did not even say (i.e. Monday Morning Quarterbacking). And despite what appears to be your colossal ego, I CAN say I disagree with some of your points and you don't get to deem me or anyone else incorrect. It's just an opinion and they are like ____, everyone has one, including me and you. My point is just that this will no doubt be resolved over time and I am not willing to declare it a conspirarcy or declare the entire committee immoral on your assertions/opinions. Believe me, you are making yourself clear, I just don't agree with all the points you are making, many of which I feel are based on speculation and your own biases. The games have begun & on Sunday we will have a new National Champion. It's time to celebrate the accomplishments of the teams who made it there.
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ACC Fan
11-19-2004 7:35 pm
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First game down
Duke convincingly downs Michigan by a 5-2 score. There will be an ACC/NCAA championship game in spite of the NCAA folks. Not much they could do about that anyway.
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Anonymous
11-20-2004 7:30 am
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My Last word on the subject
Ok, we'll agree to disagree. I do feel passionately about this issue. I think that when politics enter anything involving student athlete's to this degree, a price must be paid. As one of the posts suggest, the only explanation that doesn't fit, is that these seeds were decided fairly. Regardless of what conspiracy...... Bozman, Shelton or the ACC, someone or the committee as a whole should pay the price. Not because of vengence, but because it should stop here. Next year, if these guys are allowed to be forgiven or forgotten, they'll possibly manipulate the process another way, again at the expense of the athletes.… At least, if enough dust is kicked up, they'll be more careful, and consequently do a better/more fair job. All of this totally flabbergasts me. I'm just so shocked that this group thought this was OK for them to do. Either they think the rest of us are idiots, or they are. But, power does strange things to people if they're not of the right temperament.
As it is, I think they cheated. I think that they wanted Duke out in the quarters. That is my opinion and I absolutely could be wrong. But, again I say, the big deal here is the monumental mistake that can't be explained away plausibly. No matter how I try to see things, it all comes up short without the "Grassy Knoll". Therefore, I really hope that the ACC coaches take this thing further. Who knows who will suffer next year if there aren't checks and balances for the Committee since they've proved they are capable of decisions that informed and knowledgeable hockey people can't understand. What do you think the RPI's used to determine the seeds are? When they release that, I'll be back. Damn, I'm happy that Duke won. Serves them all right.
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C. O. Rection
11-20-2004 9:00 am
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Confused?
Duke did not beat Michigan 5 - 2 in this year's NCAA Semi Finals.
Michigan was eliminated by Michigan State in the Quarter Finals.
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Travel
11-20-2004 9:07 am
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I think the NCAA least concern is setting up the brackets to be fair and have the strongest Final Four. They only care about the travel since they have to pay for it. They did not want to fly everyone to North Carolina and Maryland. Maybe they should seed all 16 teams and have the first round played on the campus of the highest seed. The member institution would pay for this travel cost. Than the winners move onto the championship site where they will play the 2nd round on Friday, Semi finals on Saturday with finals on Monday night. I am sure this will pose other problems (missing classes, 3 games in four days) but the NCAA will only have to pay for the travel of eight team and only to and f | | | | |
x73
