Sat 5 Jul, 2008
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Opinions expressed here do not represent the official views of PlanetFieldHockey.com or its staff. Comments will be removed if they are considered offensive or of a personal nature.
Comments on this article
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JN
04-02-2001 12:47 pm
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I think you are right. It is improtant to have you National team guys goin to the elementary schools and spreading this message. I love this game and would like to see it grow. But i fear that all we do is talk in this country. You make it sound simple. If it were then we would already have lots of boys playing in this country.
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S.D.
04-02-2001 2:02 pm
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Excellent Article Ravi. We need to get the Field Hockey program to be included as part of the Phys Ed program & intramural level for the Elementary Schools. It is great to have the National Players going to schools, but we also need a follow-up by the players otherwise the effort put forward is for not. Maybe it should be considered as part of their commitment(Contract) to play for the national team. This issue should also be looked at by FHC. But not only is FHC accountable, but also our provincal associations need to take accountability as well. It is funny that it is not addressed by FHC in its Strategic Framework!!!
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Chris M
04-02-2001 5:02 pm
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I love this article. Ravi you seem to have some good ideas what do you think is the best process to get young boys playing? Here is a quote that i thought would be approprate for this article.
One generation plants the trees; another gets the shade.
Chinese Proverb
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Dac Dang
04-03-2001 7:39 pm
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Ravi is right by saying that we should start at the elementary school level. But try to do it in Calgary, for example, where even the school board thinks that a girls' game. My wife and I (and our son Quang, you know him Ravi) have started the Mount Pleasant Maroons more than three years ago from the elementary level (we have now about 16 boys and some girls who prefer to be with our club, we want to be mixed). Most of these kids are now 14 and last year I guided them in the Calgary men' league Second division with the help of some Alberta senior players. This concept used some time before is called the COLT system, whereby the kids played the whole game under regular rules (NO special rules for them) with a maximum of three adults players on the field. Last winter, I got the kids to play indoor under the same setup, but we tried to limit to two adults at a time. Needless to say, the level of play of the Maroons improved considerably and the kids had great fun (so did the adults when they get beaten by the kids! We did win a handful of games). This concept, it must be stressed, cannot be used on any other team sport, because of the mere fact that using the body to gain advantage is not allowed. This, I used as the selling point to parents and we even got a TV interview (CTV). We have here the perfect team sport for kids of all age where the sport stress fair play and skill and sportmanship etc rather than muscle and strength and pushinf and shoving. We do not teach bully, and the rules do not tolerate bullying. Try to find a (almost) contact sport that pitches a four-footer against a six-footer and still gets some good gamesmanship. I am seriouly thinking of organizing a COLT-designated tournament this summer. Contact me if you are interested at ddang@mtroyal.ab.ca
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Md Ahsraf Baig
04-03-2001 9:57 pm
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Ravi,
Nice work man.I guess the best way is to get players to coach ..small school teams..junior high etc ...really helps when you can get little fellas to dribble the ball and really make them enjoy it as a skill..Later on you'll find that they go on to make it a fine art!
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Iskandar
04-04-2001 4:52 am
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Your effort reminds me of our country's effort in unearthing talents from the rural areas. In the past hockey in Malaysian school scene were often dominated by urban schools where they have more money equipment and near to the required fascilities. The NAtional Sports COuncil had several projects in developing hockey in the rural areas and the result is now most of the Malaysian National Team member is made of these young players originated there. Obviously they are more hungry for success and that's why we were hard to beat in the Olympics. Wish other countries will start their own development then we'll have more teams in the international level.
Good Luck
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Christine
04-04-2001 12:34 pm
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I find it very sad that everyone that comes to this site is to busy argue who one in that pathetic league. They should be argueing about this article. Figuring out what needs to be done to make hockey bigger amongst guys. I'm glad theres at least a few people who care enough to share there ideas and discuss what can be done. Good job! Nice article Rav. I guess you need more controversy before people pay attention.
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Alastair
04-04-2001 3:54 pm
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I read your article with great interest because I took part in a tournament in Toronto last summer and my team had difficulty explaining to people what we were doing in Canada. When we said we were on a hockey tour, people would assume that it was ice hockey. When they were told otherwise we would get a funny look and told something like "Field Hockey! But thats a girls sport"
Its good that there is something being done to try and widen the interest in hockey at the grassroots level as I for one would like to return to Canada and not get funny looks.
However it will take a lot of time and resources (human and grounds etc) before you will see an effect. I just hope that your efforts help the profile of hockey and the future of the sport. Did you find that Olympic TV coverage helped your cause in anyway?
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Ravi.K
04-05-2001 1:53 am
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Re: Dac Dang
I love your ideas. It must be so much harder when there is not many people playing period. But if you are this passionate about what you are doing i am sure you will do a good job.
Re: Alastair
I think the TV coverage helped alot with recruiting young players. It is very important for them to see Men playing at a high level. I believe if we see more games on TV more and more player will sighn up.
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S.D.
04-05-2001 10:00 am
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Ravi, it is true that TV coverage will greatly help in recruiting young players but let's face it. If the CBC had an opportunity to show the Vancouver Premier League Final or Curling which sport would be on, you guessed it curling!!! The reality of North America Field Hockey will never get the T.V. coverage.
We need to find other creative ways of getting the young impressionable players. I am trying to figure out how??
Secondly once we get them how do we keep them. One problem is we can get kids at the elementary level, but once they hit start basketball, baseball, soccer they leave hockey. The small number that we can get after that, are then further reduced once the reach high school.
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Try another TV route?
04-05-2001 11:36 am
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There was a time when community cable stations used to show men's and women's games. Why not try and lobby for our sport? Combining the Men's, Women's and Junior Associations together and push for TV time. Show Games in a school lobby at lunch
time in the Elementary , Junior/Senior high schools. Have a National team rep in his "Olympic Uniform" narrating and providing comments.
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TV
04-05-2001 1:17 pm
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Surely we must have the Olympic games on video somewhere. It is a good idea to take these videos into schools in the fasion that the last comment suggests.
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Re: TV
04-05-2001 2:10 pm
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Ask your Provincial Asssoc.
and FHC. Surely they must have a library set up for coaches and umpires to view Int. games. The main problem is the hoarding of tapes and not sharing with others. We have a local video store that actually rents them out at a nominal fee for a fundraiser.
Maybe the "planet" should look at setting up a Video resource?
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Camillo
04-05-2001 11:06 pm
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Ravi, great article, and great points. Its very important that we target elementary school kids because at that age kids can play any sport and not get hassled by other kids about it. For me I tried to hide that I played field hockey all during High School because I was the only guy that played and I knew that I would get teased a lot if other guys found out. Which in fact happened, but I kept with it and ignored the comments. Now that im older, there is a lot more support from people who I would least expect it from, who I would expect the usual comment of "You play field hockey? You wear a skirt? Isn't that a girls sport?" Instead I am hearing "Good job, keep up the good work" and "Its good too see you working hard on soemthing that you love to do".
Anyways, I think that the real hassle comes from the period of grade 8-11... those are the years that social groups and peer pressure come into play. If we have lots of boys playing the sport, then maybe the comments and teasing would stop and other kids can recognize other kids playing at a young level and give them support.
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Ness
04-06-2001 5:25 pm
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hey ravi! i read ur article. and its so true so many guys in my school think field hockey is so dumb and that its for girls. i mean i know a few that play, but if they dont they have such a bad attitude towards it. i totally think getting more guys to play is a really good idea. men's internation and olympic games are so exciting to watch, and i dont think they really realise how far u can go with it. well good article. cya at zone tryouts.
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Phil A. Hignell K-W Olympic Hockey
04-08-2001 1:32 pm
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Getting boys and girls to play Hockey is easy. You just have to ask. Then ask again. Talk to their parents & put it down for next year to ask again.
If they do not know the game, videos exist. Why not make a video with clips copied from those taped at the Olympics.
Make copies & let the kids see them.
School clinics are very good. But only a start to making the phone call and asking.
This year we expect over 75 boys and girls playing in ages from 6 to 17. [Now we are just starting to grow. 250 players in a few years will be alot of work, but doable.] We asked and showed videos and gave out over 8,000 brochures.
Very Slowly people here are seeing Hockey as just another game. But obviously a good game.
What is really needed is lots of regular work over a number of years and the game will grow.
Call/write for more details.
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Ravi.K
04-09-2001 8:44 pm
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I like your idea but what country are you from? And how can I get a hold of you? I would like to learn more about how you enroll so many boys. Thanks
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Phil A. Hignell
04-10-2001 1:20 pm
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Ravi, contact me through Field Hockey Canada's club contacts in Ontario.
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Alex Babel
04-11-2001 11:04 am
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I am a freshmen in highschool and I have played field hockey for three years now. I have had at leastone boy on my team every year I played and they always seem to be good at it. I think that if someone likes a sport and they are good at it then they should go for it no matter what sex they are.
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Peter Munsing
04-15-2001 12:14 pm
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Great article and comments. It's the same--perhaps worse in the US. In many states boys are not allowed to try out for girls teams, so there is no place for them to play. In some states, if they are allowed to try out then they are made to wear the hockey skirt--and few boys, let alone 7th graders, are willing to put up with that level of humiliation.
Those that impose such rules should consider that not only does it make the sport look cruel and churlish--forced crossdressing in the 21st century as a way of limiting youth participation--but also makes the sport ridiculous. At the same time, it sends a fals message-I have had guys I have tried to recruit tell me "but don't you have to wear a skirt?"
For starters, coaches and others in the field hockey structure need to be told to be nice. Obey the golden rule. At least do no harm. From the above, its obvious many don't know or haven't internalized rules of basic civility, let alone basic kindness in treatment of children. Really, the same things are being trotted out to ban boys that were used against people of color "they take away the opportunity for good girls" "they create more injuries" "they don't belong here"--ironically, also the things that were said to keep women out of sport, out of craft unions, and out of the professions and professional schools.
One picture being worth a thousand words, I have tried to bring to schools a combination of videos to show that 1)men play 2)they are real guys, not nancies, 3)the sport is far more exciting than soccer.
I say tried to, because though I wrote to all the gym teachers, all the athletic directors, and all the fh coaches in my county only one would let me show the film clips to gym classes. So again, the word needs to be gotten out to be nice. I find it especially frustrating as some of the coaches who didn't reply exclude boys from their teams--they want thenm to play "somewhere else" but when you try to set up a club for guys they don't even want to help set up the "somewhere else." And one of these coaches teaches in our futures program--a little like giving an education position to someone from the Klan.
A thought to empower guys in the sport--for lets face it, there is an attrition rate and of the few that start many drop out--is to have regional scrimmage and coaching weekends, so they can get together as guys, realize they are not alone, and be empowered.
To those who don't want boys in the sport, let me suggest the following: even if you don't like the idea, 1)they are kids, so don't be cruel to them, and 2)realize that they have more heart and desire, and should be lionized for that not condemned--consider that for them there can only be love of the game--they have none of the secondary gains that girls have--team camraderie--not for them; its tinged by the gender difference, especially in the younger years. Peer group support? No way--their peers do things like say L"you play in a dress, you must be a fag," or pull on their sweatshirs and say "you wear a dress, let's see if you wear a bra." Parental support? The team of the boy hating futures coach I mentioned was sanctioned for the way their parents were yelling and behaving to a boy playing on a visiting team. Their own team parents will make catty comments if they don't think the boys parents are listening.College play? I think Univerisyt of British columbia has men playing--otherwise I'm unaware of any mens varsity teams. There are few club teams. Many colleges won't even let men practice witht the womens team. Scholarships--forget it--there aren't even teams.
These young guys litterally have to fight for their sport--your sport. They deserve your support.
If you can't help them, at least don't try to push them down.
To the reader who said they had prepared videos and pamphlets--could you post your web site?
My e mail is :
quartetwyo@aol.com
Look, if with all its barriers to entry--expensive equipment, need for long flat
stretches of water, etc--rowing is growing, there's no reason hockey can't. So courage! Let's come up with good bumper stickers, pamphlets, handouts for sports writers, to get the word out that men have been playing field hockey for 4000 years.
To those that dislike the idea--get over it! It's happened!
Onward into the fog!
Have a great year.
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Peter Munsing
04-15-2001 12:24 pm
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PS--for both men and women, in this country and perhaps in Canada one problem is a dearth of clubs. First, let me suggest that coed clubs be seen as a starting ground. Second, there should be some sort of e bulletin board so that you can list yourself, note the geographic areas you are willingto travel to. It would be crossreferenced by geographic area, so if you move into a town that doesn't have an established club, or the club is only girls and you are a guy, you can see who else is in your general area, get together for scrimmages, maybe form a side and then, who knows, perhaps a club is born. One other thing that is needed to help clubs grow is a basic manual on how to run a club and most importantly pass the torch. In this country the college clubs tend to come and go because they don't have enough members from the town, and the club tends to be "carried" by the member with the most energy and drive--when they graduate or take a teaching position elsewhere, the club folds or goes into a slump.
Another model might be (without the boozing) rugby clubs, who have grown and grown without fanfare, without major publicity, and have gotten to the point they have attracted sponsors.
But I digress......
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Peter Munsing
04-15-2001 12:29 pm
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PPS
I would like to note, parenthetically, that some of the greatest supporters of boys playing are women, and some of the staunchest opponents are, paradoxically, men! I can remember the irony of a local fh development meeting where a male screamed at me"your son doesn't belong in the game--he should get out." What a fine sentiment for FIH's year of youth! What a fine figure the person cast--a man staunchly defending his right to oppress boys! So my comments are directed as much, if not more so, to men who claim to be of the sport--but apprently only if the players aren't boys!
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JL
04-17-2001 5:51 am
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Holding school hockey clinics is probably the best way to get kids interested in the sport. I started playing hockey at primary school myself in a similar set-up. The key to keeping young players is indeed to get their friends involved. The most successful method my club has found is to hold free 'pie nights' where a prize is offered to the child who encourages the most friends to sign up. This gives them an excuse and incentive to badger anyone they wish were playing hockey with them into doing so. This way friends motivate each other into continuing the sport and even as they move into high school, the evening training sessions become something to really look forward too as you get the chance to catch up with your old friends. We've found that friends encourage friends who attract more friends to play, and soon their best friends have come down to see what all the fuss is about too. This way our club went from no junior teams to no less than 5 teams in as many years, with about 90% of our player base originating from the same primary school. Suddenly a real community feel is brought to the club and the future looks bright.
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Stuart
04-17-2001 11:39 am
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Re: Peter Munsing
There is also a Varsity team at the University of Victoria. It has been in place for 3 years now, and is the only team with Varsity status in North America. (UBC lost theirs a few years ago, although with a new turf going in, perhaps they will get it back)
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V
04-18-2001 8:34 am
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Thank you for your comments - i am making a CD-ROM - beginners guide to hockey as my final year project and your comments will come in handy. I am trying to include reasons why guys should play hockey and that it is not just a girls sport.
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Keith Dickinson
04-26-2001 6:38 pm
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Ravi, good effort, of course if you can get to young people in a learning enviroment, and have something you are passionate about to teach you will win converts. I have played Hockey (ain't any ice in Australia)in four of seven States in Australia (About the same as Canadian Provinces I think) and junior hockey is organised the same in each State. Older players devote time to coaching/umpiring/managing at each of the primary (years 1-7, age 5-12) and secondary schools (years 8-12 age 13-17) then varsity hockey looks after uni students. This is with the supporting structure of local (township based) clubs in district competitions overseen by State Hockey associations. Talented Junior players of about 15 years of age can easily play in three competitions a week Local, District, School. plus train for each team giving only one day of rest a week. Is it any wonder Australian teams do so well? Just to titilate you Canucks I started playing soccer to age ten (my acting skills weren't good enough) took up Lacrosse to age 13 (too boring not enough skills required) then found hockey. now age 45 and still competing at national championships and yes I'm male. Guess someone forgot to tell me Hockey was a girls sport, But anyone who wants to suggest it can meet all 120kg (260lb) plus body armour of me at the top of a "D" near them and we can 'discuss' my feminine attitude. Signed the Goaly from Hell
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Harshan Grewal
07-21-2001 1:30 am
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I am a boy that is ten years old and plays and enjoys field hockey.And I think schools should have field hockey teams. If kids find out that they have talent in field hockey they should join a junior field hockey team,there also should be a field hockey website for kids,it should have info on joining field hockey .
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Interested New Zealander
11-15-2001 11:24 pm
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Junior Hockey
My son is an International player but started hockey in a small country area, like many players in New Zealand. The area has worked hard to bring children in to its programmes by using development officers who go out to schools to show, instruct, encourage. The development officer has hockey sticks, balls, cones etc (sometimes organised through a good sponsor) so the gear is provided for the school. They rang the schools to organise a time slot (with or without an approach from the school). Gradually the schools get the gear. They also organised "named" players to help on occasions.
Also one way the players came in to the real system was by providing "part" of a grass field or artificial turf and giving them games. Mixed teams starting from age 5 or older. New players would play on third or quarter of field in a mixed team and ran around like bees round a honey pot. Basic rules. The following year moved to 7-a-side mixed on half a field. If capable moved through to full field mixed. Our local area could not make up a single sex 7 or 11 a-side teams. This was for junior school teams only - up to age 12/13 - when they left to go to High School. However Representative Teams (Under 11s, Under 13s were single sex). High School mainly single sex teams. Could play school and club.
Our children had time slots on a turf from 8:00 am to 12:00 noon on Saturday. But the time slot that appeared to earn the best comment was the Friday Night 5:00 pm to 6:30 pm when parents came. It enabled them to watch their other children on Saturday morning. We were not allowed to change it.
We also arranged for the learners to play sometimes Saturday mornings prior to Senior Men or Women so they could watch adults play.
Remember in schools all sports deserve a "space" even if people don't like them. Children should be encouraged to try any sport.
Our local schools (some 70 pupils in total - some more - some less) have a competition each year where the children from 10/12 play a competition of some 4/5 sports for a cup. I believe the rules are that if you play a sport on a Saturday, say rugby, you cannot play that for this competition. A boy may play netball, hockey for example. High School pupils umpire and if they can get "high profile" local sporting personalities to be present - a great benefit.
Keep trying anything - one person gained is another mouth to spread the word.
Good Luck
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sarah tomlinson
11-27-2001 6:05 am
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i love boys
i think boys should be nicer to girls about playing hockey and football andso on
you go girls
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sarah tomlinson
11-27-2001 6:07 am
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boys
and all you fit lads out there give uz a knock
hopefully cya soon (hopefully)
bye
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josie felton
12-29-2001 3:44 am
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boys wearing skirts
I can't see a prblem with making boys wear skirts to play. Girls have had to put up with this for years, its about time boys found out what its like. Either we all wear shorts or we all wear skirts!
I quite fancy catching a glimpse of a hunks unrewaer as he tears round the field!
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HI
06-11-2002 2:40 pm
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I Love Field Hockey!!!!!!
i am a guy (14) who plays field hockey in calgary. it is great!!! Everyone should try it !!!!!!
I LOVE!!!!!! field hockey!!!
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Ms V
06-11-2002 6:33 pm
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Marketing a non-traditional sport for men. That is what this is, and it has many similarities with sports around the world. As an Australian, you may be surprised to hear that hockey here is a traditional womens sport, but that it is also not the top womens sport in the country - netball is (and if you don't know what netball is please do NOT bother to ask).
I am dissapointed to hear this prejudice, but realise it is realistic. Josie Felton, your comments only go to show that you want to take the sport back 30 years. Just because you are not happy wearing a skirt and feel degraded in it, is no reason to further degrade a boy wanting to play. I know of NO international sport where men wear skirts, but know many where women wear shorts.
I think a co-ed approach is an excellent idea. :D
Most of the university clubs in Australia the men and women are colsely aligned and they have a good social side too - not always about booze.
The university of Stanford does 'house' a group of hockey players, a lot of them Australians and New Zealanders who work in the area. They regularly travel up to Canada to play. Have a chat to them to see what they do right.
Another angle I suggest is Rugby Union in Canada. Did you realise that the Canadian womens rugby team are champions? In a male dominated but world wide sport!! And if you think women should not be playing - it is scientifically proven that women, with their lower centre of gravity, and higher % of fat, are much more suited to the game than men! Perhaps they may be able to help hockey with some of their strategies. Like with anything, a lot of time and effort must be spent - but we love the sport so a chance is to be had!
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Samantha
02-01-2004 6:21 pm
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I am a 16 girl on Cape Cod MA. I have been playing competative Field Hockey since I was about 7. I have always played with boys and think it is awful when coaches would refuse to play my team because we had a few boys on it. I do not think it is fair to steryotype guys into saying that they are all 200 lbs. 6'2 and muscular. I have played against and with girls that have been larger than some boys. But I think if a guy would want to play field hockey he must abide by all the rules, including wearing a kilt... If guys are not made to wear the kilt then i think that it would only be fair if girls had the choice to wear it or not to wear it.
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Ms V
02-04-2004 1:31 am
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I can understand to an extent, your feelings of wanting equality Samantha, however this Also brings into play humiliation. What other sport forces a boy/man to wear a skirt. None. Has a girl been asked to wear a male jock strap? I would think this inappropriate, just as I would think a skirt (cal it kilt if you may) on a fellow. Sport is all about including people - you know, being inclusive. Not denegrating people. If the player is neat, protected accordingly, and abides by the rules, then I say play.
Just to note, I was asked to represent San Fransicso in a weekend tournment whlist over there one trip. I was given a yellow shirt, however did not have the correct blue skirt I think it was, so I wore a similar (but not the same) blue coloured shorts. I was not once approached by any other player or official in regards to my attire.
P.S. The rules of hockey do not say anything in regards to uniform unless it talks about protective gear. It is only the local clubs/associations who choose to impose uniform regulations and choose to weld their small amount of power to degrade others to conform to this length of standard.
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Samantha
02-07-2004 12:17 pm
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Ms V i understand what you are saying but a jock strap is a form of protection not a part of the uniform. i also play boys hockey (because the girls team isnt very good) and the uniforms are sometimes not at all very accomadating to girls. i understand that it is not madatory in the field hockey associtation's eyes but many school districts mandate that while playing field hockey girls must wear skirts. Also the skirt is not degrading only to the male player it is very degrading to be playing a game in front of a crowd and then relize the the main focus of some of the male viewers is to see what girl will fall first so that they can look up her skirt. to be that girl it is very degrading even if you are wearing shorts underneath your skirt. why, if all these things happen to both male and female players is field hockey the only sport that the uniform includes a skirt/kilt?
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Ms V
03-01-2004 1:52 am
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Good question Samantha. I can understand how you feel about having boys want to see up your skirt when you fall over. I was once young and also did not want this. What you're asking is very sensible, but challenges some fundimental issues in society. That boys wear pants, girls wear skirts; that baby boys wear blue and baby girls wear pink. Absurb when you think of it. You will find as you get older, that you will feel more comfortable with your own body, and may not have an issue with falling over wearing a skirt. However this doesn't help you presently.
What is it that is not accomodating about the uniform that you wear with the boys?
Your query on field hockey being the only game with players wearing a skirt. MMM. In Australia, all our girls wear skirts for sports days, and our two main female sports have skirts as uniforms (netball and hockey). As for the international level. Body suits are used, but with skirts. Why? Because this is what is traditional. So where does tennis fit in. The large pecentage of these players wear skirts. Thinkgs have changed for tennis players over the years though. Colours, shorts etc. This issue id so much bigger than you think, and people right thesis' on this issue. I encourage you to explore it!!
As for an answer. Really, I think the USFHA needs to spend some time doing PR. There is NO REASON skirts should be a requirement in the associations rules. You should covet to have these change. Form an educated, well supported opinion with advantages and disadvantages to your association. Get support from others before you present your case.
P.S. on the jock strap issue. When joining ice hockey in this country, I was one of very few girls to play. The rules stated that players were to wear a jock strap, plus what we call "a box". A plastic protector for the genatils. Well. I found an ice hockey product in the US that was for women, but I could not afind a reason why I should wear a jock strap. There were issues because one of the other teams insisted I couldn't play because I wasn't wearing part of the specifically listed unifrom. The rules were changed after protest from many people - but it was crazy to have to wear something that degraded me that I didn't need. Nice that the other team were that afraid of me that they felt they had to do this though! The story of the jock strap, however, was to make a point. There is NO REAL REASON to be wearing a skirt. Is there?
Go for it. And I wish you luck with your argument!
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Kelly
07-03-2004 5:09 pm
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Wow, I really wish they had something like this when I was in elementary!!! I tried field hockey as a unit in phys. ed. in the last high school year, and I can quite honestly say that it is one of the few games I actually enjoy. I have every intention of trying to join my schools team, whether it means I have to wear a skirt or not.
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willy10
11-29-2004 10:59 pm
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as a fieldhockey student of Dac Dang everyone is right about the fact that all the boys think that fieldhockey is a girls sport. but as a high school student now and protesting the the fact that boys cannot play for a high school team. what i have been told is that the boys have a program for fieldhockey outside of school and the fact that girls dont have one for football they are allowed to play. it has nothing to do with us injuring the girls or anythign. but i dont know if anyone has figured out but hear in alberta our fha program is a joke, so if someone can tell me whats the deal with that boys hockey doesnt stand a chance and the only person in alberta that has kept the boys program going in DAC DANG but he is still not reconized and is not allowed to be a coach and has been chaced away from FHA
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Lane123
02-13-2005 6:24 am
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Come on.. the traditional uniform for field hockey is a kilt/ skirt. If we start saying that girls can wear shorts, the wearing of the skirt/ kilt will quickly die out. The kilt/ skirt should be manditory for whoever plays. The teams would look a mess if they can all choose what they feel like wearin.. it is a team afterall). Boys could wear cycling shorts underneath their skirt/ kilt if they feel the need but they should be made to wear the same as the girls for conformity.
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Davo
02-14-2005 6:20 pm
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Uniform
Lane,
I grew up playing in boys teams that also included girls. The girls in my TEAM wore skirts while the boys wore shorts. Simple.
If my team had a clash of colours we sometimes played without shirts or as "skins". By your arguments, as that was our uniform for the day, the girls should also wear this "uniform". Right? My point is, it is offensive to one gender but not the other.
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Scott
02-16-2005 5:15 pm
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Uniform
I have played netball for the past 5 years both in school and at my local sports club. The traditional attire for netball, being a predominantly female sport, is a skirt. This tradition is normally upheld, both for girls' and mixed teams, although most boys-only teams wear shorts.
I am male, but I have never played a formal netball match in anything other than a skirt. We expect females who play traditionally male sports to wear what the men/boys wear and I see no reason why the opposite should not apply.
You know what? It's perfectly possible for a guy to go on a court in a skirt and play his favourite sport without World War 3 erupting, or even compromising his masculinity.
A sports uniform is a sports uniform. You play the sport - wear the kit - what's the problem?
Scott
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steve
03-06-2005 9:02 am
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I am on a mixed field hockey team whcih originally had only girls but now 3 guys are in (me included)
We all have to abide the rules and don a royal blue wrap over field hockey skirt with plain front and back pleats. Its pretty embarrassing but hey thats all part of the fun for me you should have a sense of humour, stick on a skirt be embarrased, enjoy it and laugh and enjoy the game. why not
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Michael
03-07-2005 10:50 am
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This skirt/shorts debate is sooooooh weird. Here in the UK I've played hockey since I was about 6 - boys wear shorts, girls skirts. There's never ever been a time I've been asked to wear a skirt, ok, apart from a charity match where the boys lost a forfit and had to wear the girls kit at uni, but hey that was a joke. I cannot believe there are actually places in the world today where a guy has to wear a skirt to play a game.
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Scott
03-11-2005 2:10 pm
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"I cannot believe there are actually places in the world today where a guy has to wear a skirt to play a game."
It's just a piece of cloth! The universe doesn't explode the moment a boy wraps a sports skirt around his waist to play hockey or netball. Girls wear shorts when they play sports traditionally played by boys. What's the big deal with it the other way around?
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Michael
03-16-2005 9:02 am
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Ok Scott, I know the world doesn't end when a guy wears a skirt, but given that almost all other hockey playing countries have no issues with men in shorts, women in skirts it is weird to read the comments on this board. Also, where exactly does the "it's listed as unifom it must be worn mentality" end. Do the guys wear matching ladies underwear and bras as well ?
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Scott
03-16-2005 1:26 pm
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Michael: "given that almost all other hockey playing countries have no issues with men in shorts, women in skirts it is weird to read the comments on this board." It's only 'weird' because you have never encountered it before. Once you have done it yourself and seen others do it, the novelty wears off. That takes at least - 10 seconds!! " I never said that "it's listed as unifom it must be worn mentality". I do judo and wear a judo-suit - I don't think that I shouldn't wear it because I'm not Japanese. "Do the guys wear matching ladies underwear and bras as well?" That's silly. We don't expect female footballers to wear jock-straps, or not to wear bras, do we? I don't play hockey but I do play netball. I respect the sport and the traditions of the sport, including the accepted uniform. The pleated netball skirt is really a shorter version of the kilt, and kilts were designed for men, so I can't understand why this should seem particularly "weird", nor why any male should object to wearing one.
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Ms V
03-16-2005 3:12 pm
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I cannot believe this thread has continued to around and around in circles. But hey.
There IS a difference between an adult male choosing to wear whatever cloths they want, and a child being forced to wear a piece of clothing that serves no particular purpose - it is not a piece of saftey equipment and does not have to be worn to perform any particular skill (such as in judo). The skirt in the most largest of % of teh world is a piece of clothing that is worn by ladies, not men. It is NOT a kilt, designed with the particular tarten of a family, it is NOT a sarong, worn to keep cool and the sun off the legs. It is a piece of womens clothing. To force a child to wear a piece of clothing that degrades them is disgusting. Time and time again people have told us that they have been slandered because of wearing this. How simple, seriously, how simple would it be to have the boys wear shorts. Pretty damn simple the way I can see it. Same colour, accepted piece of clothing for playing sport, performs the SAME function as the ladies skirt.
Remember when you were in primary school and had to come to sports day. The girls wore skirts and the boys wore shorts. We competed in inhouse games, and interschool competitions in these uniforms, and believe it or not, in time they even allowed the girls to choose to wear shorts. Schools in Aust (that wear uniforms) have traditionally had dresses for girls, shorts or pants for boys. Many schools in the 80's offered for girls to wear pants if they wanted, but they never offered for boys to wear dresses. In this day and age ( and I cannot see it changing for decades) dresses are acceptable for girls only, whilst pants and shorts are aceptable for boys and girls, sometimes in different particular situations.
These are children - do not force your CHOICES of difference upon them.
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Jossy99
03-16-2005 4:20 pm
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I am always getting told that Hockey is a girls game
but i love the sport
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Scott
03-16-2005 5:33 pm
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Nobody is “forcing” anyone to wear anything?
“it is not a piece of safety equipment and does not have to be worn to perform any particular skill (such as in judo).”
Judo suits aren’t worn for ‘safety’!! The style of a judo suit is traditional Japanese – that’s all.
“It is NOT a kilt, designed with the particular tarten of a family,”
Not all kilts are tartans. Irish kilts, for example, are in solid colours - not tartans.
“To force a child to wear a piece of clothing that degrades them is disgusting.”
Why is it “degrading” to wear a garment to play a sport traditionally played by the opposite sex to wear a garment that is traditionally worn by the opposite sex? Are girls who play football “degraded” because they wear shorts?
“It is a piece of womens clothing”.
Who says so?
“Time and time again people have told us that they have been slandered because of wearing this.”
I don't believe that. In any case, slander is defaming someone’s character. It has nothing to do with a person donning a sports uniform.
“Same colour, accepted piece of clothing for playing sport, performs the SAME function as the ladies skirt.”
The netball skirt is the “accepted” piece of clothing for netball – for BOTH sexes in the case of mixed contests.
“Many schools in the 80's offered for girls to wear pants if they wanted, but they never offered for boys to wear dresses.”
And why not? Don’t you believe in equality of choice? Apparently not.
Scott
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Michael
03-16-2005 6:24 pm
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Thank You Ms V, well said and I couldn't agree more.
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Ms V
03-16-2005 10:07 pm
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In reply...
the uniform in judo is as much tradition as it is "worn to perform a particular skill". That is to be able to have the traditional stance and perform many of the moves. The article of clothing is sturdy and strong where it needs to be.
So go there on the tarten - semantics I say. The kilt is also traditional and serves a purpose to show which clan they belong. Nowdays they are worn more as a traditional dress wear then on the streets.
Society has decided that skirts are traditional wear for women. I would think that if my staff member had cause as a male to wear a skirt, that there would be grounds for him not to come to work until he wears the appropriate 'uniform'. Check the courts and you may find this has been tried. Skirts for boys/men unless it is a traditional costume is in the eyes of the court not acceptable in the eyes of society. It is not professional. Do what you like in your own time though.
If you do not believe that boys have been taunted, descriminated (what ever you would like to call it) then that is sad. You are not taking the word of others who have posted in this site. All you would need to do is aask a 15 year old boy to wear a skirt and you would see their reaction. Having said this, I do no means suggest that every boy would be offended, but the rather large majority would - hence why we are having this debate. The reason it is so bad is that adults are fine to make choices on controversial issues for themselves, but they should not force something controvertial upon a child. And before you say, YES this IS a controvertial issue, otherwise we would not be writing on this site about it for... how many pages is it?
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Davo
03-17-2005 5:00 am
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Scott
You can have your attitude. It will ensure the US will never be competitive on the world stage.
North America is probably the only place in the world where the number of women players far outnumber the number of males (in most countries there are more men than women) in your supposedly "traditionally female sport". How has their performance in world events been progressing lately?
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Scott
03-17-2005 11:29 am
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"That is to be able to have the traditional stance and perform many of the moves. The article of clothing is sturdy and strong where it needs to be." The style of the judo suit is oriental - it doesn't have to be - but other, more even more robust designs - have been pioneered yet the traditional Japanese style is always preferred.
"So go there on the tarten - semantics I say. The kilt is also traditional and serves a purpose to show which clan they belong. Nowdays they are worn more as a traditional dress wear then on the streets." 1. The overwhelming majority of kilts do not denote the family tartan of the member. Ask any kiltmaker - I know a few! 2. As I told you before, there are kilts made for men in solid colours these days. They include traditional Irish kilts and even modern kilts (see: www.utilikilts.com).
It may be unusual to see a man wearing a skirt in the local supermarket etc, but I'm talking about a sport (netball) which has strong traditions of its own. A few decades ago it wasn't acceptable for a woman to wear trousers or shorts. Gradually these became accepted. Society's norms are in constant flux. If you go to a mixed netball tournament, you will see males - men and boys - wearing netball skirts on court. Within 30 seconds the novelty will have worn off and it will seem perfectly normal and natural.
"If you do not believe that boys have been taunted, descriminated (what ever you would like to call it) then that is sad. You are not taking the word of others who have posted in this site. All you would need to do is aask a 15 year old boy to wear a skirt and you would see their reaction."
This might be an issue in field hockey (because of narrow-minded people) but it is not in netball. When my team started a new junior club (aged 11 to 13) we had fifteen girls and four boys. They were told that they would have to wear the senior team's colours for matches and they all had to wear the same, regardless of gender. We asked them to vote on whether they wanted shorts or skirts. All but two players voted for skirts - and both of those were girls!!!
Davo. I'm not in the US. I'm an Australian temporarily living in the UK. Go on - make my day - ask me how Australia is doing! LOL
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Michael
03-17-2005 4:47 pm
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This might be an issue in field hockey (because of narrow-minded people)
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OK Scott, while you're in the UK, take a look around the nearest Hockey pitch, you won't find any guys in skirts - likewise, while you'll see loads of girls in school trousers I somehow doubt you'll find any guys going to school in a skirt. Moreover I don't think you'll find any of them protesting about it either !
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Ms V
03-17-2005 8:37 pm
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Well Scott, you managed to totally miss the points I put up. hence the use of the term semantics.
The point I am trying to make is that society has ruled that skirts are traditional fare for women, and not for men. Perhaps in 50-100 years time this will change. But it is not the case now.
At first when you said that men wear skirts to play netball, I initially thought you a straight out liar. mmm. I am not accusing you of this, I just have not found any evidence to support your claim. I have spoken (emailed) to numerous netball players in Aust, NZ, Eng, and none of them are aware of any men playing in skirts. Like I said, I am not calling you a liar, I just do not have proof to support your comment. I would welcome others that could help.
Again, I cannot find any evidence to support your claim (from others points of view) that a boy would choose to wear a skirt. Hell, in fact in bloody well surprizes me!! Perhaps you live in an abscure part of the UK where things are different. (please do not take this comment as a personal gripe as it is not intended). But any boy I know in Aust and the US (which is why we are discussing this) would NOT want to wear a skirt.
No school in either of these countries would allow a boy to wear a skirt as a school uniform. I cannot find one. Do any of your schools? (rememebr I am not talking about a kilt - please distinguish one from the other.
Question Scott... Can you accept that in the US, boys being made to wear a skirt are being picked on by other boys, and are made to feel inferior because they wear a skirt? This is because their culture (as well as the Aust culture) accepts skirts as tradition womens wear. I do not consider hockey players narrow minded for feeling/thinking this way because in SOCIETY it is the NORM.
Hey, we have to view this IN CONTEXT. In the US and Aust skirts (not kilts, or protective equipment ect etc) are for girls.
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Michael
03-18-2005 3:37 am
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Again, well said Ms V. The hockey uniform has also advanced quite a bit over the last 10 years, take a look at the Dutch Uniforms or the Aussie ones, they are 100% aimed at the female form - the Dutch Team Kampong even have their team sponsor name across the back of their skirts. (Sure got this red blooded males attention, lol) http://player.narrowstep.tv/?player=fieldhockey&void=2649 follow the link and you'll see what I mean. Somehow I just can't see that happening with a male team !
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Scott
03-18-2005 1:38 pm
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OK Scott, while you're in the UK, take a look around the nearest Hockey pitch, you won't find any guys in skirts -
Michael - I am sure you're right - I don't play hockey. But you go and check out a mixed netball club and see what the guys are wearing.
Ms V
"The point I am trying to make is that society has ruled that skirts are traditional fare for women, and not for men."
One of the great advantages of living in a free society is that individuals and groups can challenge and even disregard such "rules".
"Like I said, I am not calling you a liar, I just do not have proof to support your comment. I would welcome others that could help."
Well, it's nice to know that you are not calling me a liar. LOL. I'm not surprised at the response you got because men's netball is pretty rare to begin with, and mixed netball is even rarer. I could refer you to a number of clubs and schools where skirts are de rigeur for both sexes. But I never suggested it is universal - I know it's not.
As for kilts, the netball skirt is called precisely that in many instances - it is a short kilt. In spite of what some Scotsmen would have you believe, a kilt is a kind of skirt. The characteristics of a kilt are that it is an unbifurcated garment worn below the waist, wrapover style, with a plain front and pleats around the rest of the circumference. There is no requirement that a kilt has a tartan pattern.
"Question Scott... Can you accept that in the US, boys being made to wear a skirt are being picked on by other boys, and are made to feel inferior because they wear a skirt? This is because their culture (as well as the Aust culture) accepts skirts as tradition womens wear. I do not consider hockey players narrow minded for feeling/thinking this way because in SOCIETY it is the NORM."
No. It is the culture that needs changing. Because to accept that a male feels "inferior" because he wears something normally worn by females implies that females are "inferior" to males. We should be well past that by now. Men wear long hair, earrings and even some cosmetics. If girls can wear dresses, skirts, cullottes, trousers and shorts, why should boys be so much more restricted in their fashion choice? Boys playing netball and hockey should wear their skirts (or kilts) with pride. They are showing guts and individualism whilst confronting blatent sartorial sexism. That's how women got the right to wear trousers in the first place. What's sauce for the goose, as they say.
Scott
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